Yes, there is victim precipitation. However, making this a sidetopic belabors the quite basic "be careful about how you portray yourself" point and can be interpreted as victim blame.

Would Martin still be alive had he not worn a hoodie? Would he be alive had he not been a young Black male? Would he be alive had he not been walking? Would he be alive if he had not bought those dangerous candy weapons? These hypotheticals and turning this into the "young Black male hoodie" subtopic takes away from what really happened, just as a discussion of a rapist would be reduced if the discussion turned to whether the rape victims should've worn the super sexy booty mini-dress. That makes rape about sex when it is really about power just as Zimmerman's actions were most likely not a result of feeling threatened and therefore defending oneself against violence. When Zimmerman chose to follow Martin despite the 911 Dispatcher's recommendation, he was potentially placing himself in trouble. There is no self-defense (I hope the law will reflect this) when you follow someone and you have a gun when the other person has candy and fists of fury. I call bullshit and I hope the law calls Zimmerman and his supporters on this bullshit.

When traces of bullshit are permitted, loads of bullshit ensue. This 2010 incident was discussed on CNN on Thursday:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/0...-went-to-Court

I have always liked Geraldo since his days of "dat's bullshit, 'lado...I aint touch dem kids" Joe Jackson, to getting his nose broken on aire, to his current work on Fox News, et al.

MSN asked whether Geraldo's a hoodie hypocrite:

http://now.msn.com/now/0324-geraldo-asking-for-it.aspx

They are being tongue in cheek but I don't think he's a hypocrite. Geraldo was talking about a particular look that is "created" when certain people (particularly Black males and non-white Hispanic males) wear hoodies. What he said is true in terms of how people perceive and treat others based on perceptions. But, what if someone thought Geraldo looked like a potential rapist or a pedophile in his hoodie? :eek: No joke, there are profiles as well as stereotypes (stereotypes are not the same as profiles) in which Geraldo could fit. He better watch out.

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/html5/vid...=null§ion=null

Why are we just now hearing about Trayvon calling 9-1-1?

Postings are going around Facebook that say "In case you want to take the law into your own hands:" followed by George Zimmerman's address and phone number. I presume they were taken from the phonebook.

I pray that those ignorant people do not find Zimmerman. If they harm him, I hope they are arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

The New Black Panther Party has a $10K bounty for Zimmerman's arrest. Zimmerman is understandably "hiding." I do not know why the NBBP would start a bounty if it has not been determined that Zimmerman should and will be arrested. This bounty encourages people to ignore the law and arrest Zimmerman, anyway, most likely physically harming or killing him unless the bounty specifically states not to do so.

Much respect to the people who have taken the time to research this incident, regardless of which side they weigh in on, and stage peaceful protests and expressions of opinion.

...so much of this trouble me
 

So, if some one has an equally irrational aversion to white guys in collared shirts and ties, should the white guys take that into account when dressing?

I get your point. Personally, I detest the dumb-a$$, sagging, pants off your a$$ look. But until a law is passed outlawing it, guess what, I gotta get over it. People need to control their own aversions/fears unless and until someone steps to you or presents you with a clear and present danger.

By no account presented, even Zimmerman's, did Trayvon Martin do this. When all this started, Trayvon Martin had a right to be exactly where he was in the gated compound.

And now this organizational cowardice, this selective media leaking by law enforcement, the same outfit that let the shooter walk away, w/ gun in possession, without a breathalizer, without surrendering forensic evidence that is now irretrievable, is engaging in character assassination on Trayvon Martin with news of his school suspension, as if that had a da*n thing to do with his being shot dead in a Florida street on Feb. 26.

And yeah, while I support this protest and the pressure it's bringing, I'm equally troubled that we --Black people -- don't roll out like like this when intra-racial shootings occur, leaving other Black mothers to grieve their children. Let's protest and fix that.

this whole thing is troubling on levels I don't even wanna think about.

/end rant...for now.

I was waiting for someone to say this.

The attention and outrage will be different because the majority of person violence for all racial and ethnic groups is intraracial. Whites are more likely to be violently victimized by whites; Blacks are more likely to be violently victimized by Blacks; Asians are more likely to be violently victimized by Asians; Native Americans are more likely to be violently victimized by Native Americans; etc. That is about the victim-offender relationship in highly racially and social class segregated societies such as North America. The reason why interracial violence receives the attention that it does is because it is much less common than intraracial violence.

It is the equivalent of responding to public outrage over a murderer who identifies as Christian and who murders someone who identifies as Muslim by saying "I wish we would respond like this when Christians kill Christians." No, we would not because in North America, the majority of offenders and victims identify as Christian. When that is not the case, based on the relatively small percentage of Muslims in North America and the relative difficulty in the average North American Christian to have extensive exposure to Muslims in North America, there is a question over what motivated the offender to target and therefore victimize a nonChristian. That is one of the foundations for hate crime legislation because the person's group membership is what motivated the crime rather than what typically motivates offenders. In addition to a different motivation for crime, it typically takes more time and effort to target and victimize members of groups with whom the offender has relatively less interaction.

Similarly, males are most likely to be both the victim and the perpetrator for all crimes except for sexual assault and rape for which females are more likely to be the victims. Yet, people respond differently when a male offender robs a female than when a male offender robs a male. The outrage and fear for safety is not the same when discussing male-male violence and victimization. In fact, males report an extremely low fear of crime despite having the highest victimization for crimes except for sexual assault and rape.

If people want intragroup violence to be as shocking and appalling as intergroup violence, that's fine, but that requires an understanding of victim-offender dynamics. It is about much more than "Black people aren't outraged when we harm each other" as though that is completely accurate and unique to Black people.

I know this was a rant, but that's not what I said. I agreed that some looks make certain impressions. I didn't say people deserve to die because of the way they dress.

I disagree. Dudes and females should be able to dress how they please. So if a female wore some revealing shit, she should be raped?

Please reread what I've posted (twice).

No, you should not get raped or murdered because of what you wear, but we'd be lying to ourselves if we said appearances didn't matter. Otherwise, why dress up for a job interview? I could be the smartest and hardest-working person, but if I go to an interview in sweats and a dirty t-shirt, I'm not getting the job. THAT'S what I'm agreeing with.

I think if Geraldo had said this outside of the Trayvon Martin context, people wouldn't be making a fuss. It makes sense for him to say it, though, given that he's a media personality who relies on getting headlines in order to stay relevant.

I feel you there, but dude wasn't on an interview so he should be able to dress how he pleases. Geraldo is full of shit as far as I'm concerned.

Obviously, an interview is not the only place where you should be concerned with appearances. (General) You are grown, so dress however you want, but you can't get mad if you are stereotyped as a "hood" or "thug"

Folks are going to stereotype you regardless of what you wear. You can wear a Hugo Boss suit, but depending on how you are as a person, most folks will judge or stereotype you based on that alone. I don't really give a shit how folks stereotype me, because they're going to do that anyway.

Yes, some folks will stereotype regardless of your look (as I stated earlier, I'm willing to bet Zimmerman would have found Martin suspicious if he wasn't wearing the hoodie), but that doesn't mean you should happily run around perpetuating said stereotypes.

Like I said in my post, you should wear what you feel comfortable wearing (when you are on your own time) regardless of what folks say or think.

There is no excuse for what happened to that kid, point blank.

Again, folks can do what they want, but just realize that it may or may not cause others to perceive you a certain way.

Agreed (as I said multiple times lol)

Yes, you can.

Wellllllllll, here's the thing about raising issues that are not central, the side issues become the topic. As with any discussion of opportunities and facilitating factors for crime and victim precipitation, the average person will be distracted from the main issue. Yes, how we look and our demeanor matter. Newsflash. How we look and our demeanor especially matter for power minority groups--i.e., women, racial and ethnic minorities, and GLBT--who have higher rates of victimization for certain types of offenses. Newsflash.

Zimmerman's attorney is betting on this newsflash becoming the main topic because people cannot multitask and are easily sidetracked. Instead of problematizing the potential offender, the potential victim is problematized. The topic has now become what Martin was wearing, whether he was suspended from school a few times, and whether there was a trace of marijuana on one of his school bags weeks ago. What in the samhell does that have to do with anything? Well, they are saying that Martin was a bad kid (read: typical Black male youth who should not have been in that gated community in ther first place--or at least should have been wearing a 3-piece suit to buffer the effects of his badassness). Moreover, they will present it as Martin is the one who was violent toward Zimmerman. Zimmerman was therefore "standing his ground." However, it is also the case that Martin could have been "standing his ground." But, that will not fly in the eyes of the law (I don't care about public opinion) if Martin is portrayed as a weed-selling kid who kept getting in trouble at school for walking on hallways he was not supposed to walk on and so forth.

Exactly and that is the problem.

You have a freedom but you ALSO have a responsibility.

Part of what bothers me about our younger kids coming up today is that some are not being TAUGHT that they are already stereotyped by looks alone and BY ACTING OUT those stereotypes they further along those stereotypes.

Who decides what the "main" issues are? This is what I was saying in my earlier response to k_s. That's why I used the absurd example of whether white guys should be worried if tomorrow morning everyone else in America woke up and was suddenly "apprehensive" about the "ominous look" of white guys in ties?

It's that absurdity that has some people obliquely making Trayvon somehow culpable in his own death becuase of how he was dressed.

Whether he called himself a "no limit nigga" on his twitter page is irrelevant;
whether he got suspended for marijauana use is irrelevant. The boy had the right to get back to his daddy's house alive. Period.

I'm up to >>here<< this week with people's "impressions." Feel however you want to feel about people's attire, but if you can't deal with your impressions then stay your a$$ in the house.

(No shade) I obviously disagree, but I'm curious why you feel that way. IIRC, I've seen you post to aspirants telling them to dress/speak appropriately when seeking membership in GLOs or face rejection. Why wouldn't the same hold true outside of the Greek world?

I think that, ESPECIALLY in the AA community, we should mindful of these things so that we're not "setting people back xx years" (for lack of a better phrase).

Yep.

And like DrPhil said, this side "issue" is taking away from the situation at hand, but what do we expect from a former "shock" journalist?

-----

Restating one more time: No, I don't think that a hoodie caused his death or that a mini-skirt invites rape.

It depends.

If you are Black wearing a "hoodie", then yes, you are most likely stereotyped as a thug. If you are White wearing a "hoodie", then you are most likely stereotyped as cool. :rolleyes:

True.

I was trying to think of this outside of the Trayvon Martin context, though, so I'm not only referring to hoodies.

@ TonyB06

The main issue is whether Zimmerman should be arrested and tried for the incident to get this away from the court of public opinion and let a judge and jury determine whether Zimmerman was lawful. Legal and extralegal factors will be considered and the main issue will be what Zimmerman and Martin were doing in that context that sparked and fueled the incident. It may not matter what Zimmerman and Martin were wearing other than how surface level appearance can fuel perception (raise your hand if you always act based on perception). Did Zimmerman have the legal right to be, what I consider, Billy Badass? Zimmerman did not know that Martin had gotten trouble in school just as Martin probably did not know that Zimmerman was (what some consider overzealous) neighborhood watch.

Just like when a robber enters a family's home, sure we can think the family was dumb for not having a security system and leaving their doors unlocked. That is victim precipitation. Moving on, the robber is still a robber because the robber was uninvited.

Hoodies, sagging jeans, shirts that make you 'walking advertisements', jerseys, hats and of course hair styles.

But isn't giving in to the way white people think you should dress setting people back xx years? Why should one dress for the comfort of white people, or people in general?

When certain items of clothing are "ok" for Justin Bieber to wear, but not "ok" for Trayvon Martin, doesn't that say more about the problem than "young black men should not wear hoodies because it makes them look 'hood'?"

We are already at a disadvantage and negatively stereotyped just by the color of our skin. Add onto that what we are wearing and then how it's worn. Finally, take said us and put us into a public situation and and watch how we act. Does it increase or lessen the stereotypes that non blacks have towards us?

In most cases it doesn't even matter what we wear, but I think part of the issue is the attitude of those who play right into the stereotypes by acting out in public and do nothing BUT reinforce what non blacks believe about us.

Still, at the end of the day it gives no one the right to chase another down and kill them just because they 'fit the description'.

If you want to make it in a "white man's world," you sometimes have to dress the part. As long as we're a power minority, it's something we have to deal with.

Yes, it is a problem. That's nothing new.

ETA: Bieber is on Access Hollywood right now wearing "urban" attire (including a hoodie). Speak of the devil...

"I'll be damn gag me with a spoon."

~ Greg Nice, Nice & Smooth, Hip Hop Junkies

I agree. This is near getting out of control and I personally blame the media with their "bits and pieces" reporting style concerning this incident. They are leaving a lot of room for people to make their own assumptions here, which is not good regarding an incident of this level (see NBPP and their "bounty"). The general public doesn't know all that went down that night so lets hope all parties stay cool headed while the numerous agencies investigating this do their thing.

Too freakin' late for that..... I think it will be a miracle if Zimmerman lives through this.

Late to the thread, but I think the only thing that Trayvon Martin could have worn to have avoided Zimmerman would have been a white boy costume.

So sad that this child was murdered.

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz...nzaso1_500.gif



This exactly.

And what I'm saying to you is folks are going to perceive you in a certain way regardless of what you wear.

Thank you.

Let's try this again.

1. NO, Trayvon did not deserve to die because of his outfit.

2. YES, Geraldo was an idiot for saying that the outfit resulted in his death.

BUT

1. Taking Trayvon out of the picture, we all know that if you dress a certain way, people will perceive you a certain way.

If k_s walks past you on the street at night with a business suit and a briefcase, you will probably react differently than if k_s walked past you on the street in Timbs, a beater, and XXXL pants that are sagging. Does this mean that one k_s is better than the other? No, but it does mean that one k_s will be PERCEIVED a different way.

2. Geraldo is a media personality. He doesn't make money if nobody cares about what he has to say. To all the people who say "HOW DARE HE!? WHO DOES HE THINK HE IS!?" -- it's giving him headlines. It's making him relevant again.

And while I agree, sometimes regardless of what you wear, you can still be seen as a stereotype. You and I both know that.

Just because I am tall with dredds does not make me a basketball player from Jamaica who likes to smoke weed and been to jail.

I have a fear of Black men in dark streets PERIOD so I will be terrified of you even with the business suit. That business suit does not keep you from whooping my ass. In fact, where in the hell did you get your business suit, from a work release program or did you steal it from a white man?

Argggghhhh...I'm calling the po-po just in case!!!

Is your battle with the stereotype why you got mad at me years ago for singing Buffalo soldier, dredloc Rasta to you? LOL. That was funny as hell.

Sure, perceived, fine. But shouldn't perceptions be challenged? Changing your appearance to fit what you think would make a white man more comfortable (keeping in mind that white Justin Bieber is not perceived the same in the exact same outfit) strikes me as counter intuitive - why not go about your business being a k_ass while wearing whatever you want to wear in your off time?

Clearly it's complicated. I just don't think it can be boiled down to "don't wear hoodies or you'll be perceived to be threatening/suspicious." If no black men wore hoodies, and they all wore suits, how long until it becomes "don't wear suits or you'll be perceived to be threatening/suspicious." Maybe it's an oversimplification on my part, but part of the message of "don't wear hoodies" is "don't be any color but white."

It's the assumption that IMO is offensive.

I get/got it.

What really irks me, and understand where I am coming from, in some places, the islands (Jamaica and the Bahamas) the natives there automatically assume that I fit that stereotype.

Ok check this: JUST by looking at me


In the states, I am assumed that I can play basketball

In the islands, I am a weed smoker

In Europe, I am an artist or in a band.

In Africa, my hair is fake ( so many people wanted to touch my hair!!!!)




All of this is assumed before one talks to me to get to know me.

When me and my wife went to Israel, we were the last ones of our tour group to disembark from the boat and the first and only ones detained and patted down.

The only place where I traveled that we got no attention has been Canada. Go figure.