I honestly think the main reason PNMs are not told the "full truth" about recruitment is to encourage them to actually go through with it and do it without fear. If they knew all the dirty details (the cuts, the drops, the percentages) more girls would probably back out from the beginning.

Then again, I think it depends so much on the school you go to. At my school recruitment was SUPER competitive and I definitely felt like the "mutual selection" thing was a little sugarcoated to encourage people to stick it out. A lot of really great girls in my rush group were cut right off the bat :( They would have been wonderful sisters!

I had very good friends in several houses and had AMAZING conversations but was still cut from those chapters. At the same time, I had mediocre conversations at several chapters that seemed uninterested in me but I kept getting invited back to them and was even preffed at a house I felt no connection with at all. So I agree, it's not 100% mutual, and I do think "mutual" is a misleading term. More or less (at least from my experience, I could be wrong though) the GLOs choose you and you either go along with it and enjoy or drop out.

Of course recruitment is so complicated and it's basically impossible to give everyone A) a bid and B) what they want, especially at large schools with competitive rushes.

That's a good point that I didn't think of. And I know some chapters at my school have ended up having to give a bid to girls they didn't want, but because they weren't the "top dog" chapters they had no choice mathematically.

Now wait. There is no way in H__ that a chapter can be forced to take girls they don't want.

You know what you're probably right, but this is what I heard from girls in a certain chapter. Maybe because they didn't cut said girl earlier in the process or something?

Your school isn't SUPER competitive, but this illustrates one of the perception problems the NPC is dealing with here. 100% mutual selection is a myth. At every school, even at the most laid back, there are certain chapters and PNMs who are always in a position to get what they want and things will be competitive when it comes to getting those chapters and PNMs. It's just like real life, but we're afraid to officially admit it.

The only way they might have to bid someone is if they put her on their bid list. Otherwise, no.

That's not what we're saying. Chapters, just like PNMs may keep getting those same names back when their list is run through that they don't necessarily want. The chapters can completely release girls, even if it means they are not maximizing their options, just like PNMs can refuse to attend parties and not maximize their options, but there are consequences to these options. Some chapters don't choose to take those chances just like many PNMs don't take that chance.

Yes, they are free to drop as many as they like, but they may not be eligible for QAs. This happened to a chapter I worked with at Towson. Same rules as applied to PNMs that did not maximize their options.

That is true but there are other forces and consequences at work that can effectively prevent a chapter from doing it.

Exactly my point this is the crux that shows ultimately its the chapter that has the power to choose which PNMs they want, and if a PNM matches then its mutual selection.

Chapters are the only ones who can give out a bid. Therefore they're the ones who have a much greater factor in the selection process.

I know there are the ends of the bell curve where a everybody's rush crush with more invites than parties available has all the power to choose. I know of one girl who had two older sisters who were chapter alumna, including one who was the President, yet she preffed at a different house because she just connected with those girls better.

And then on the GLO side, at the lower end of the spectrum to put it bluntly they list as many girls as they hope to get to try and meet quota. I know that isn't how it happens everywhere, but it is a harsh truth at some chapters.

Others might think differently, but I think on campuses with struggling chapters, many women rank these chapters last (try to drop) every day, and the amount of girls that get their last choice that they ranked last every day is about quota.

You don't have to be at the ends of the bell curve to have power as a PNM. Girls in the middle get to choose as well. Say PNM Polly goes back to three mid performing chapters and is well liked by all three. She is very happy with them all. This is an extremely common occurrence since in bell curves, this is the middle hump. PNM Polly has her choice of the three chapters. They all rank Polly very high, on their first bid lists in fact. In this case, Polly gets all the power, since she can choose where she goes. Whatever she ranks #1 will be her new sorority even if #2 or 3 would fit her better or would kill to have her. You are just blinded by the worst case scenarios.

I know what you are saying. But on that all important first day(s) of IWT the Chapters have all the power. The situation does get more mutual towards pref.

The three mid performing chapters than PNM Polly goes back to was because she had already been cut by the 'top' chapters.

I know tiers is a topic that is taboo on GC, but lets face it at some schools PNM Polly is only hoping for 3-4 chapters when recruitment begins. And I am well aware that "every school has tiers", but every school has football teams too, and some are just in a different league.

I think in some situations its can be a disservice to PNM Polly to make the process sounds egalitarian. Otherwise we'd never get all those: "Why didn't I get a bid' stories. The majority of them didn't get a bid because they didn't stay the course and go back to the parties they had, and they dropped out of recruitment because they were cut by the chapters they wanted, thus shows the power structure between the Chapter and PNM on Day 1.

I don't mean to sound condescending its just I know my verbosity has a habit of making myself poorly understood. I totally apologize for that happening!

NB: Probably the most common comment i get back from professors: "Please rewrite this paragraph, I don't understand what you are trying to say"

The women who are saying "we HAD to give skanky stella a bid"? That dictate is coming down from their hq. Hq can tell you who (or more precisely, how many) to bid under threat of discipline. Panhel can not.

Wasn't there some discussion recently about the way PNMs in their stories were no longer "cutting" chapters, but doing something else like "ranking", which showed that some Panhels were getting the message across that when a PNM ranks the chapters after the parties, there was a chance that the lower ranked ones would appear on their next invite list.

I only remember because the difference in terminology (from 'I cut x chapter' to 'I ranked? x chapter') was quite clear, but I can't remember which stories they were

eta: KSUViolet bumped the thread I was thinking about. Having the PNMs rank "back-ups" or "alternates" instead of cutting could help some of the misconceptions about rush if I understand correctly

I also wonder if it hurts the weaker chapters that the top X number are all #1, and then the "back-ups" are ranked. Basically, the PNM's have to think about which chapters they like the least, but not which chapters they like the best. It's subtle, but I think that it makes PNM's really focus on the bad.

This seems a lot like how high school students apply so multiple colleges ranging from their dream campus to "safety schools." I have a feeling a HIGH percentage (95%+?) of students who don't get accepted to their first (or even second or third) choice still go on to college SOMEWHERE and have a pretty great experience.

This. It really isn't mutual selection because you have to be on the sorority's list to start with. Only if she's on every list does the rushee have a say. And to the extent that she's off more lists, she has less say. Even the least performing chapters STILL get to choose who they invite back and if they're only inviting back girls who don't want them there are going to be girls who weren't given the opportunity to mutually select them.

There are schools where there is a struggling chapter, but it's still a very competitive campus where girls get cut out of the process completely after round 1 or 2. That means that struggling chapter still had the upper hand in deciding they didn't want a girl who probably would have accepted them, even though it would be her last choice. That is not mutual.

... and then I went off on a tangent about selection and crazy ways of doing it and decided to self-edit. You're welcome.

This is very rare. Save IU, there are very few schools where any significant number of women get dropped completely.

That's why I get angry about women telling PNMs, especially at large schools, "you'll end up where you're meant to".:mad: No doubt there are people on GC for whom that happened but I can tell you of many others for whom "the system" didn't work.

I don't have a solution for it. I just want to cry when I hear people spouting that off and watch the eager PNMs believing that there's a magic and perfect sorting hat (I wish).

But I think "I don't fit" is code for I am better then this Chapter and should have gotten my first choice or not been dropped from my fav.

Recruitment is such a weird thing. What else do you do in life that 20 minutes of one day decides your fate going into a second day? With the exception of sports not much. So much of recruitment is shrouded in mystery and there is a lot of misinformation out there about it. I know that the Chapter I work with really doesn't understand how it works start to finish with the exception of the women who work in the back room.

I don't know if once a Chapter gets to a certain size any PNM could be happy there? If I am a conservative girl and join a Chapter that is very social it might not be a good fit for me. Yes, there may be girls I like and have fun with but my experience wouldn't match my expectations of doing more community service and sisterhood events then fraternity social activities. As an adult I might not join an organization where I don't feel like I have any thing in common with the women who are in it. I don't think there is any thing wrong with that. I think that recruitment goes wrong when these girls don't follow through to the end of the process. They get released from their favorites and bail. I see nothing wrong with getting to the end of the process and deciding it isn't right for you. I think we take exception when these girls get to the end of the process don't sign a bid card and then get on here and bitch about "being cut from every chapter"

The OP asks in the original question Should we change the way PNM's think about recruitment. Yes and No. I think you have to walk a fine line of the information you put out there. I think you have to set expectations like grades. If a Chapter wont take under a 3.0 then that needs to be clearly stated. If they only take blondes (JK) same thing. I'm not sure how much of the process they need to know other then ALL recruitments are competitive. There are only a limited amount of spots available for PNM's. I think the conversation has to be if you want to be Greek follow the process to the end and then make a decision.

So its pretty much agreed more transparency is required, but its knowing not to breach member selection, as well as scaring the PNMs into never taking part, and pleasing the PC police.

So in practicality everything stays the same but hope that PNMs check out GC with all the advice we have to offer and hope they utilize some common sense! ;)

I mean, I can think of a few explanations:

1. You're a new freshman, homesick as it gets and you don't put yourself out there to bond with the girls. Of course you don't fit! You're crying in your dorm room all the time.

2. You're a new freshman and you legitimately don't fit in at your school. This happens, and it may be joining the sorority that makes you realize that you do have a place--or that reinforces your discomfort.

3. You're a little bit older and joined for social reasons, but you realize that you don't want to be part of the insanity of pledging and you don't fit with the group's expectations for a new member.

4. There are people you'd bond with, if you ever actually met them. It can be hard in big chapters to find someone you click with. Or maybe someone rubbed you the wrong way early on and you think they're all like that.

All problems that can be fixed, but ideas why a girl might not fit.

But we tell PNMs to look for connection and chose chapters based on where they feel most comfortable. We want them to pick a chapter that they feel a connection with rather than a chapter that is a good fit on paper, right? We say things like "where would you feel most comfortable lounging in your pajamas and without any makeup on".

We have a tendency to tell PNMs BOTH that they could be happy in almost any house, AND to follow their heart. I think the go-where-you-feel-comfortable thing is an attempt to counter tent talk and PNMs selecting chapters based on reputation.

I was going to say something similar. A post on here (now deleted) talked about how at a certain large school, your social and extracurricular opportunities WERE greatly differing depending on which chapter you joined. If you are only joining for sisterhood and could care less about those things, it might not matter. If a big part of joining for you is those things, then no, you won't "fit." It has nothing to do with whether or not you like the girls. And we are talking a big chunk of change here for you to participate in something that you don't feel is giving you all it should.

Very true. At the same time, speaking as an 18-year-old on behalf of 18-21 year olds, it's hard to remember that there's going to be sorority life beyond the semester or school year. It's hard to mentally configure the concept of a "lifelong" situation (or even one that will last through all of college!). I think a lot of girls want to fit in and they want to fit in now. Especially for freshman living away from home and family/friends--they want to replace the friends they don't see anymore quickly and easily. Of course, in that, they forget that it took years to get to the point where you and your best friend could spend hours on skype, watching each other study for midterms in completely separate states.

But I feel that tenacity and active participation can overcome a lot of non-fit issues. 33's right, though. It totally depends on what led you to join in the first place.

Every once in a while we do see a rush thread that says something along the lines of "these girls looked way too put together for me." True, that's not common, but some girls honestly don't want 200 beauty queens for best friends. There are issues of fit and it would be awesome if the girls going through rush could appreciate the similarities and differences of the chapters without making those differences better or worse. But that's not going to happen, so...

And that's why I love GC. :)

Also agree with DubaiSis. That goes back to the "could you see yourself with no makeup sitting in the kitchen in your pajamas looking like you haven't slept in a week because you have six midterms in two weeks?" argument.

Not everyone can join the top three groups. Like I said earlier, there can only be true mutual selection when there is no quota. You are, of course, assuming that everyone wants the top three groups and could never go into recruitment wanting anyone else, which is far from the truth. You also are assuming that PNMs come into recruitment with decisions fully made and only change them because they are released. This is also not true. If you're using your own experience during recruitment as the basis of your views or the stories on GC, they are not the norm.

I think that so much depends on the individual. The Reluctant One was/is very secure. She truly didn't care about the tiers. She ranked several top houses below a top three house

BUT there are those young women (one of whom I wrote about in my story so many years ago) for whom it is top tier or out. I think that it would be very interesting to see statistics on who drops out of recruitment and when....at the end...after a top 3 non invitation...or do the pnms "stick it out"?

I wish that it could/should be stressed that you will have a social life. You will make friends...whatever house you join or don't join. A friend of one of my kids makes a fabulous presentation. She's gorgeous. She dresses amazingly well. She is from a well placed family. And for an hour she can hold it together: she is the biggest dork in the world.

She is a smart dork. She pledged a "low tier" house. Her rho chi was baffled. The girl knew herself.

A few years ago a girl named...Rebelcheer something wrote...something like "isn't this about what I want?" I wanted to write "And how does it feel to want?"

I too want to know what the stats are on when PNMs drop and why. I am a stat driven type person I guess.

I also wonder if retention rates are better at campuses with more chapters, all else being equal. At a campus like my alma mater, you could get cut hard, and still have a full schedule. At the end, that's three prefs. It's one thing to have a chapter that you are certain isn't good enough for you, but three? I have to think women would be more likely to at least stick it out and attend the prefs with home that they will love at least one by the end of the night.

There are some stats here somewhere that showed all that data for the University of Illinois. It doesn't say WHY, but as I recall, the drop rates were pretty consistent over the whole time. If I were to hazard a guess I'd say they got cut from their favorites and dropped out instead of taking one of the 18 other sororities. For god's sake, with that many choices there can seriously only be 2 or 3 worth your time? That is ridiculous.

We had the stats around here but a large percentage of the girls that drop out of recruitment here drop out after first round. We have had some theories on this tossed around on why that is. One is that they just wanted the opportunity to move in to campus early, and they can do that if you pay the recruitment fee. They had no intention of pledging. One was that mama expected them to go through recruitment, and they weren't in to it. One was that they are not prepared and just overwhelmed by the craziness of recruitment in general.

The next big drop is right before prefs - but its not girls that see where they are invited for prefs and then don't show? Its girls that call it a day before the end of skit night

Very very few people don't show up for bid day. Maybe a handful do not accept their bid after they open it.

I am QFPing this for myself because it's a wonderful point. My rec crew is in that panicky summer phase where they are past graduation distractions and have plenty of free time to obsess about the process, the numbers. (I get it... they want to make some knowable sense of an unknowable.) And I am trying to help them prepare emotionally and pragmatically for SEC and Big 12 heartbreaks.