From the video game angle ... a lot of the problem-solving in video games is figuring out the pattern or the unknown from a series of known "variables". For example, you know that there are 5 pieces to the puzzle, and 5 caves to explore - if you don't find that puzzle piece in Cave C, you can be pretty sure you missed something, so you backtrack, find what you missed, fill in the gaps, etc.

Even in something like a first-person shooter, you're constantly examining where you know people are, and what you don't know, to see if you can figure out what's going on from the context clues.

What kinds of games does he like? He may be using related critical thinking without even realizing, and that might be your hook.

I haven't read every post of the entire thread, so excuse me if I say something that has already been said.

I currently teach Algebra I in the same state you live, MC, and in a county not very far away. Let me know if you decide you want an algebra tutor. (;

This is very true and in the state you live, it is a result of standardized testing. There are "more creative" things that can be done with Algebra but because Algebra I is and always will be an EOC class, teachers are less likely to do more fun things. Their goal is to teach it exactly how it will look on the EOC so that the students can pass it. (As an special ed teacher teaching Algebra, my approach is a bit different, but gets the same result.)

Nothing can truly prepare anyone to teach Algebra I to students with IQs of 50 and below. Teaching Algebra to EC kids is a very, very difficult job.

See I can totally get where he's coming from because in 8th grade when I took algebra I barely paid attention (because I hated math) and then didn't get it (which made me hate math) and that made me want to pay attention less (because I did not care about math!) It was super frustrating. One thing that I know now that I wish I knew then is that it doesn't end at algebra. If you don't work hard at algebra I, you will struggle with algebra II, and so forth. I wish I had the foresight at the time to just stick with it and tough it out. It made my life a living hell mathematically for two years as I was learning concepts later that built upon ones that I never got in the first place. I often wonder if I'd just worked harder then if my life would have gone differently later.

The other point I have is that he has no idea yet what will truly interest him-- many of the topics that he may go on to love haven't yet been covered. For example, I HATED math with the burning passion of a thousand fiery suns, but when I learned about immunology and genetics, it sparked my interest in chemistry. And in chemistry you use linear equations to figure out things like rates of heating vs. cooling, etc. If my interest was sparked earlier, that could have changed things. Maybe try magazines like Popular Science or Popular Mechanics to show him how cool science and math can be?

This is true with algebra, but when you get past the basics math can be super creative. Math, in itself, is a language full of rules just like how grammar guides our rules. If you think about something as massive as the Golden Gate Bridge and how many things needed to be considered before it could be built; the wind, rain, other elements, fog, the weight of the cars, the smoothness of the surface, to make it cost effective, etc. Mathematical fields need critical thinkers and critical thinkers may need math to get to their end goal. Math is just a way to represent what would take a lot longer in words.

This may actually be your eventual selling point, because a lot of what has happened historically is described mathematically. Ex: If a town has a runoff problem from a local factory and the runoff in the water is found to have 20 parts per million of a toxin, how long has this been a problem and how much toxin is being released every minute? It may sound dumb, but if he wants to think critically about pressing issues he may have to truly understand mathematical concepts in order to 1. be a better, more informed citizen and 2. potentially work to make a difference with them. Say (as per the example) that the runoff is not immediately problematic at a certain level, but it is at the current level. How much of it would have to be stopped in order to get it to a safe level? What would be the impact over time (this is a direct linear equation if the level remains constant).

Other things that tie in mathematically are things like geography. National and state boundaries are figured out through triangulation. Things like population increases are statistical but rates of literacy, homelessness, people without healthcare, etc can be described and projected with algebra and statistics. Natural resources, gross domestic product, inflation, etc are all able to be described with math and may eventually be of great interest to him. And honestly he sounds like the kind of kid that once he gets something he'll take off with it (i.e. if he gets that eventually he can be very creative with math he might love it). So my suggestion would be to try to pique his interest with scientific/mathematical things and in the meantime maybe expose him to some statistics? He may like them, and those build on algebraic concepts. Hope this helps.

Wow psusue, great post! To a non-algebrain like me (I was the geometry/trig/stats type), this makes a lot of sense.

MysticCat, I think your son has to look at this at a macro versus micro level also. School is about learning about all sorts of stuff, even that which you don't have an affinity for, or like. I'd bet big money that the vast majority of us took classes in something that we despised, and thought that they were "stupid" to take. I hated algebra and calculus. And I would rather stick knitting needles in my eyeballs than do a puzzle. My husband, the B.S. in math/2 masters degrees in math related areas, hated foreign languages-suffered through 4 years of French, including French literature. He, as a science/math/engineering dude, thought it was worthless, as he was not going to use it with his work. Was going to make SURE that he would never need it in any job he took. Ehh. At times we just have to suck it up and do it. That in itself is a life skill. We will always have situations where we don't want to do something, but we must do it anyways. And try our best to do so. Sorry, not much help. But I did like this blog that discusses algebra in high school, as it seems to be a much discussed subject all over the country. I also found the replies quite interesting also.

http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-bl...ebra-ii-maybe/

Hey MysticCat! check this out and tell me what you think. I know nothing about it but can vouch for the person who referred me to it. I'll come back and post the isbn here as soon as she sends it to me.

Visual Mathematics: A Step by Step Guide (title is what she quoted, so best to wait for the isbn, right?)

When I was in nursing, I used basic ratio/proportion algebra to figure out medication dosages nearly everyday while at the hospital. But that was about the only time I used it. Higher forms of math was never used.

I'm still trying to figure out why elementary calculus & finite math was necessary for me to complete my business degree. A lot of economics, accounting, & finance formulas come out of calculus, but one does not need to know how to do calculus to find the answers, just basic algebra. Even then in the real world, computer programs run those formulas for you. I saw some of the finite math stuff in my statistics class, but outside of that I've never seen it again.

Ok, I win at worst HS math situation (I remember a board of education member once saying to me, "you never did quite have luck with math classes, did you?"). But I still see the value to a basic understanding of algebra. I can't think of anything specific that algebra taught me that, say, basic math didn't (especially because I somehow managed to get myself into a math class in my junior year called "Finite Math." It was basic math all the way to introductory algebra. We only got to do it that way because the first semester was statistics. I don't know how this managed to come after Algebra II, but it was SOOO cool that it did!), but I can say that, imo, some of these annoying classes (things like Algebra or World History) just teach useful skills.

My math classes taught me that some problems only one answer. They taught me how to collaborate with classmates when a particular teacher was being unreasonable, they taught me how to verbalize my concerns over a grade (with a less tangible subject like, say, English, where an essay is incredibly subjective, math tends to be more objective, and if a teacher marked an answer wrong but it was clearly right, you can easily win that one!), and how to attack one challenge multiple ways (because algebra is that kind of subject: there is [usually] only one answer, but there are [usually] multiple paths to that one answer).

Personally? I still hate math, and I avoid using anything beyond basic math when I can. Nonetheless, I still love solving ratios, calculating my grades with fancy formulas, and the occasional multiplication/division question. But algebra? I hardly remember it-I just remember that I learned about things other than math in my high school math classes.

I use algebra on a regular basis, especially to figure out complex percentages. I have trouble visualizing where the numbers go in the equation, so I'll write an equation fully out and then do the calculations in my head.

People use basic algebra all the time without thinking about it. Once you have the concepts in mind, you forget that it's "algebra" and you just think of it as working out an equation.

This is certainly part of the problem, but I came along long before teaching for the test, and it was a problem then as well. Teaching for the test exacerbates the problem, I think.

And thanks for the tutoring offer. :D We actually have a really great tutor and who is making some good progress. She's a friend whose family he's known all his life, and she has a son a year older than ours with similar spectrum challenges, so she has a really good sense of how to approach things with him. She is seeing promise.

Exactly! We keep reminding him of this, along with the basic "you need this to get into college to study what you want to study." Your whole post was very helpful and encouraging. Thanks!

He definitely does need to look at it this way, and we hit on this every time we talk about algebra. The challenge is that when you're talking about a 14-year-old with Asperger's, getting him to that macro-perspective is a lot easier said than done.


Thanks everyone for the suggestions. There's so much that I don't think that I can respond to everything everyone has said, but I really appreciate it all!


ETA:
I meant to give psusue major props for this reference. :D

linear equations can be used in simple applications like "I have to pay my cell phone bill. It costs $50 a month, then $.10 for every text I go over however many are allotted in the plan." The .10 would be your slope, and the $50 would be your y-intercept. You can use those to graph and determine how much you will pay per month based on the number of texts over your plan you use, etc. You can compare your own cell phone plan to other plans to determine if you have the best plan based on your usage and needs (by solving a system of equations.) etc. I don't know. As a math teacher, I constantly apply what we are doing in classes to teens.... if you want more ways, let me know and I'll pay attention to the things that fall out of my mouth during class when I get "why do we need this?" questions. (because the responses are spontaneous, and without any thought)

I wish my kids could have had you for algebra.

I've also taught older HS students how different gambling games have different odds.... and how to calculate them so should they ever visit a casino at some point in their lives, they can maximize winning potential ;)

MC, you are so clever, I am sure that you have tried every which way to get him to understand the importance of algebra on mathematical and non-mathematical levels. But I do find this to be a very interesting and educational discussion, and I am glad that you brought it up.

Algebra is needed for construction, such as if you are building a table or laying tile on a new floor. Algebra is needed in all types of projects that require building, that is if you want to do it right.

Algebra is also important if you ever want to get good with money and understanding dividends and interest rates and if you are making a decent return on an investment.

Algebra is also important for programming as well as just basic counting, say if you need to do fractions and split a certain amount of money between multiple people at different rates.

Hope that helps

How sad is it that I read this three times and still thought "I would have no clue how to do that"? :o

If it hasn't already been obvious, clearly part of the problem is that our son has two parents for whom math was always something of a foreign language. So, for example, when he was struggling with linear equations, I had to look them up and try to remember/learn again what they are before I could even think of helping him -- I was basically trying to learn them along with him.

Seriously. thanks for the suggestion. Once I wrap my head around it -- and I'll do my best to do that -- I'll try it on him. And yes, I wish he had you for a teacher, too. :D

Can you do it backwards? Graphs some points on a graph and then work out the equation that would put them there?

Well that was a few sentence explanation of a larger idea. Let's say your monthly plan is $50. You only get 150 texts a month with your plan.

your equation would be y=.10x+50

(x would be number of texts a month over the 150 you get included in plan. y would be the total amount you have to spend)

If you use less than 150 texts in the month, you only pay the $50. So your first point on the graph would be (0,50).

Now let's say you have a super social teenager, and he decides that "texts are pretty cheap!" and uses 1,000 texts in that one month. That's 850 more texts that you get in your plan. Each additional text over your plan costs .10 (I think that's what I used as a random example in previous post). so 850 texts at .10 each comes out to be $85 in texts. (craziness!)

So if you wanted to graph that point, it would be (850, 135) (the 850 is the number of texts beyond what you get. the 135 is the total cost for the month, the $50 monthly charge + the $85 in texts.

If you plot those two points, connect them with a ruler, and you have your line graphed.

Did that make any more sense or just cause more confusion? (it's hard to explain without writing down or speaking)

sure. If you have two points (x1, y1) and (x2, y2) just plug them in to m= (y2-y1)/((x2-x1).

That gives you the slope.

Then plug the slope (m) and one of the points you already have into point-slope form of a linear equation:

(y-y1) =m(x-x1)

where m is your slope, y1 is the y-coordinate of one of your points given, and x1 is the x-coordinate of that same point you took y from)

If you feel the need you can simplify to get it in slope-intercept form (y=mx+b), but I personally leave equations in point-slope form and try to get students to do the same.

(yes, I am a nerd. I have a preference for forms of linear equations)

Sorry, I know you CAN do it backwards, but I was wondering if that would be more interesting for MCs son as it might seem more creative.

Two things:

-One of my students stayed after school for tutoring yesterday. He shared with me that I made him think he wanted to be a math teacher. :o

-It makes me so happy, as a math teacher, to see someone who remembers all the gobblety-gook and how to utilize it.

@MC: I never knew your son was on the spectrum (not that you advertise it), but those are some of my favorite students.They have....such a way with words.

I remember all this because I too am a math teacher. That probably takes away from the excitement you had of someone knowing this.

You're right, it does. Here comes the rain onto my parade. ;)

The first part made perfect sense to me, though I never would have thought of it in terms of a linear equation. The second part on graphing it, not as much. I think I could figure out how to do it, but to me, it seems like a lot more trouble than it's worth. Frankly, it would never occur to me to want to graph it or to feel the need to. I'd stop at knowing what the numbers are; that would be enough for me.

You see why I'm challenged in telling him how he'll use this later in life -- I don't use it, or I use it without realizing it, and therefore without appreciating the value of it. :o

They certainly do. :D

Back in high school I aced math and barely had to work at it. Slept in a lot of those classes but the teachers wouldn't give me a hard time about it since I did so well and almost always had the highest grade, often over 100%. Looking back, I wish they challenged me a lot more or recommended that I take more difficult classes.

I remember classmates asking teachers "what do we need to know this stuff for" with the answer nearly always being something about shopping, usually at the supermarket. The best I could tell my friends at that time was knowing algebra really well helped some in Chemistry class and a lot more in Physics.

When I took Calculus in college is when I started to realize the significance of Algebra. Not an official answer from a professor or anything, this is just the conclusion that I came up with:

Algebra is pretty much the basic building blocks to other forms of mathematics which enable you to solve really interesting and important real-world problems.

Knowing algebra (and trigonometry) enables you to better learn & understand Calculus. With calculus you can solve problems such as determining the strongest geometric shape for a particular structure that needs to handle a specific stress load, determining the weight of an astronaut (or something else) a specific distance from the surface of the Earth or even things like determining the optimal design for a rain gutter so that it has the capacity to handle a specific flow of rainwater runoff from the roof while at the same time minimizing the amount of materials to construct the gutter in order to minimize construction costs. You can't get those answers with algebra alone, afaik, but by learning algebra you can then learn calculus where you are able to solve those types of problems.

If you compare learning math to learning a language...
- Learning letters would be like learning numbers
- Learning to spell words is like learning basic arithmetic
- Learning to write sentences is like learning algebra
- Writing essays might be like solving problems in Calculus
- And then writing books might be like solving larger problems with higher levels of mathematics

Maybe all of that will help with explaining how algebra fits in and what it enables you to build up to in math.

I won't have to take econ at all, with an expect graduation date of next May- but I'm also pursuing a BFA, so take that as you will.

My degree is fairly recent (<5 years) and I didn't have to take any econ courses. NIt wasn't required for psych majors.

Econ is an option for my current degree, though I think it might have been required at NJIT. I liked it though. It was a break from real math.

A number of people suggested this kind of comparison, and this seems to be the approach that got some traction with son -- the idea that he's still learning the language and that once he has the language down, he can use it creatively. Fingers crossed.

Thanks again for all the ideas, everyone.

Econ is not a requirement at SC for any non-business/econ/math-related degree that I can think of ATM. Then again, math isn't a requirement for a very large number of SC degrees. Science is, though... :(

Using his hobbies, it seems like karate could be used for "story problems" (although there's quite a bit of physics mixed in) because you're looking at doing things like breaking a pile of bricks with your foot or hand based on force expended, angle, etc.

I know it's difficult for him, but he may need, at some point, to grasp "Sometimes we have to do and learn things just to train our brain to work that way." Or, more concretely "School is your job right now and sometimes you have to do what the boss (teacher) wants you to do. When you are older you can pick a job that doesn't require this from you, but this is the job you have right now."

A few other practical applications that I can think of is... you are supposed to have a 5% grade around your house to help prevent basement flooding/foundation damage. That's a slope. The floor in your house has to be less than a certain slope to lay pergo or ceramic tiles properly.

Other random thoughts from this thread: I did not have to take Econ or Math in college at all. My major had so many pre-reqs and major classes that neither was required. My first grad school attempt however required grad Stats so I had to take an undergrad stats class first. My current grad degree requires no math prior but my encryption class does involve a bit of math, I hear. *Not looking forward to that*

If he is interested in history and reading, go to the library (are those around anymore?) and check out books about the history of algebra. Also use his love of reading as an algebra problem. If I can read x pages per hour, and the book I want to read is y pages long, how long will it take me to read it? Algebra is useful when planning ahead to make sure you have enough time to complete tasks.

OK MC - I know that we are talking about your son, but has anyone seen these?

http://www.amazon.com/Math-Doesnt-Su...2508229&sr=1-5

They are written by Danica McKeller (Winnie from the Wonder Years) and supposed to be really good (provided you are a 13-year-old girl).

I also have to add that I didn't like math and was actually told at one point (in third grade) by a teacher that I would never amount to much because I wasn't very good at it. (Good enough to be in the Honors class, but I struggled to keep up). Anyhow - mom sent the teacher an invite to Commencement when I got my Ph.D. :rolleyes:

I actually wish I had taken more math in college, not because I use it every day, but because I have to have an idea of what I am seeing or what other data is presented is reasonable. Is my technical instrument working and or are these computational results reliable?

The example I have that I use all the time is - if there are 3 midterms that will constitute 60% of your grade, but you get to drop the lowest of the three, and the final is worth 40%, how do you figure out what grade you need to make on the final to get an A for the semester?

{90-[(x+y)/2]*.6}/0.4 = Final

Another way to get young MC's attention - he needs to know algebra so that when he is a big hot shot, he can tell if his accountants are telling him the truth or have an idea if his employees are skimming off the top.

ETA: LOL Thought of another one - I need algebra to know if the numbers from the RFM program are legit or if there's been a mistake.

This is what I was getting at early in the thread, though. He can easily figure out how long it takes to read the book using the formula you describe as that is pretty basic, which leads to the next question: "I've known how to do that for years, so why do I need to learn all this other stuff?"

As for reading, maybe I should have been a little more specific -- he likes to read fiction. He likes history if it's the history of something he otherwise finds interesting. If mom or I suggest something he might like to read, that's almost a guarantee that he won't read it (welcome to the world of the teen-age boy). So reading a history of algebra just isn't going to happen. (And I can't say I'd disagree -- the mere thought of it makes my eyes glaze over.)

I've heard they are quite good, but again -- 14-year-old boy.

LOL. I would say that looks like Greek to me, but I can at least make heads or tails out of Greek.

We are seeing some improvement -- slow but sure improvement. Like I said upthread, the idea of thinking of it as learning the basics of the language seemed to get some traction. And frankly, we're finally getting traction with the "because you have to sooner or later, and the sooner you deal with it, the sooner you won't have to take it anymore unless you want to." I think he may (finally) see high school on the horizon and he knows grades will matter then.

Thanks again to all.

Bumping for an update:

Son decided (thanks in part to some suggestions here, thanks in part to great tutoring and probably thanks in part to some video-game grounding) both that he could do the algebra and that he needed to do it.

Although he didn't do great on the last test before the mid-term, he took advantage of the chance to improve his grade by correcting the questions he missed. All of his corrections were right. As a result, he got a D for the quarter instead of failing. We'll take passing.

But more impressive was that he actually studied for the mid-term -- perhaps more and over a longer period of time than he has ever studied for anything before. He was trying really hard not to just beam when he told us (as matter-of-factly as he could) that he made a 92 on the mid-term. That was well above the class average. He would have made an A (93 and above), but he missed what he said was the easiest question -- the kind you can only miss if you misread it, which he did. (There's another lesson for him -- read carefully.)

The result, even though he made Ds both quarters, his semester grade is a C thanks to the mid-term. I don't think we've ever been so proud of or made such a fuss over a C before. :D He got to choose where he wanted to go for a celebration dinner (meaning he picked where he likes the desserts best). And he's gotten lots of positive feedback from his teacher about how well he has been doing. We seem to have hit the point of confidence and success building on each other.

Just thought I'd share.

^^ Like!

That's awesome, MC! A 'C' is very admirable in a difficult subject! And what's better is that if he keeps this up it could get even higher before the year is out and even if he doesn't, he's learned how to conquer a challenging intellectual subject. That is SO necessary in college and in later life. You're should be very proud of him. :)

Great news!

HUGE news. Been studying your update post to see what tidbits I can glean to apply with others. Thanks for letting us know how it has progressed.

Since the intrinsic payoff isn't there for him, the way it is for many neurotypicals, I've found your combination approach to be interesting. That's what seemed to be effective. OK. Good to know.

BTW I sent you a reference after I attended an incredible workshop on 11-30. Let me know if you didn't get it and I will resend.