It says may. It doesn't say that you will be released from recruitment nor that it is required that you be released. Again, if they are doing that, the AA should know about it. What's wrong with doing that?

Why would you report something which isn't against the rules?

The reason to require pnms to attend all parties is to do all you can to enable them to make an informed decision. Chapters cannot cut pnms without meeting them at first round parties - they need to make an informed decision. Same with the pnms - and we all know of pnms who changed their minds about a chapter over the course of recruitment.

I give..whatever...let them just release whomever they want for whatever reason they want. No need to question anything.

It's perfectly 'legal' to release them. This isn't a "no need to question anything" situation. The process is overseen throughout. Because it says "may" it means that a campus "may" enact those rules. A later section of the green book provides sample rules for recruitment including:
For Chapters
For PNMs
Although this doesn't list the consequences, the previous bit did. I'm confused why you're assuming it's wrong and should be reported just in case, when it's really not uncommon on campuses in general AFAIK, and is permitted- although not necessarily required - by the manual.

I was going to bring it up. As much as it may suck for the PNM to have to attend a party that she doesn't like, it sucks a HELL of a lot more for the sorority to be buffaloed into asking back women whose presence at a party could turn off the PNMs they DO want. Especially when the Rho Chis (and people on here) keep saying things like "look around at the other rushees! Those will be your pledge sisters!" I'm glad no one ever said that to me or I might have made really horrendous decisions.

Yes, the PNMs CAN "cut" chapters IF they have enough invitations to spare. You know, your perfect DG recruitment where you just wandered over to the house and chatted with the girls and ignored everyone else wouldn't seem so idyllic if you hadn't gotten a bid and were left wondering if there was a way to get to know ALL the groups instead of just wasting your time with one that didn't want you. Because that's the reality of recruitment. Have you ever even helped with modern recruitment?

Oh, sure, but I've also seen collegians decide that Patti PNM is their OMGFAVORITE in round 1, and then when Patti doesn't show up in round 2, they find someone else to rush crush on. There is nothing wrong with Patti, she just didn't shine as much in the first 15-minute meeting.

I think it's pretty analogous to PNM's choosing chapters. If there's a struggling chapter that's like half the size, or unhoused when all the others have gorgeous mansions, or something like that, it's one thing to sorta mentally write it off. It's another thing when virtually all the chapters are close to the same size, over 100 women each, and the main differences between them are the tent talk.

(Of course, my experiences are with a much larger recruitment than yours...I'm talking about first impressions when there are tons of PNM's that nobody really knows)

THIS. While I appreciate that RFM can benefit my chapter, we've also been told by our former GL advisor (and allegedly the RFM specialist as well), "You can invite back X number of women and you'd better invite X, not X minus 1." And it doesn't help a chapter shed the "they take anyone" image when that PNM no one else wanted ends up there.

This all goes back to trying to get everyone involved to use as much of the approximately 120 minutes they have to get to know each other. The sororities need to make cuts but ideally will only cut the minimum number and the rushees should attend the maximum number because 120 minutes tops is a ridiculously short amount of money to make these decisions that cost thousands of dollars and a lifetime of friendships.

That being said, if a girl doesn't want to attend certain parties I guess she shouldn't be forced. I think she should, but it's her decision. So many girls do not go through the process with an open mind that giving that house another chance is really going to be a waste of everyone's time. I also would like to see some sort of "with regrets" system where a girl cuts a chapter or the chapter cuts a girl and later on down the process either side has an opening of sorts and can get back onto their list. So many girls have full schedules the 2nd day and get slammed on day 3. There may have been houses that wanted to see her again who she suddenly has space for. Is this too complicated for the computer to work out or for the people involved to understand?

It is really tough for a house to not have enough women at parties, and it can become obvious to other PNM's. I really don't think it is so horrible to spend half an hour at a chapter you are not interested in and be reasonably polite. Oh, and chapters talk to one another, believe me.

There is nothing complicated about programming the software to allow "re-invites" for women who do not have the maximum number of parties. The issue, however, is that chapters don't want to look desperate by inviting women to round 3 who weren't at round 2. I have seen it happen, on occasion, when there was a legitimate mistake*, but if all chapters are following RFM, it shouldn't be that necessary.

*NOT A COMPUTER ERROR. A HUMAN BEING mixing up two PNM's with the same name.

Mutual selection truly exists for only the top PNMs and top recruiting chapters.

Awww, someone's been reading http://totalfratmove.com.

Orginal.

As I said, some have so kindly* reminded me I didn't go through the type of formal rush that some, or most, schools now use. Had I not been invited to DG, I would not be greek. I seriously doubt I would regret it, but it's one of those things I can never know.

I do know that I personally believe a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses and to be able to receive more than one bid. The 26 NPC groups have, however, chosen to give up autonomy to "fairness". (In my opinion, sometimes we spend so much time on "fair" that we forget to do what's "right".) I know I don't have a say; that's what happens in any representative form of government.

I've also heard "it's the system we're stuck with". To my mind, that's acceptance of status quo with no attempt at improvement, but again I realize I may be in the minority. I'm certainly not on the same page as the decision makers.

So you have your opinion, and I have mine. I'll not silence mine.

For the last time, the rule says "MAY" not will. So if a campus is forcing women who do not attend a party because they simply don't want to, the AA should be told. I'm not saying she's going to do anything. I'm just saying she should be made aware because she may not know and may need to investigate what's going on. If she says she knows and has blessed it because X, Y and z, then fine. At least she knows.

Good grief, ladies!

This is how fraternity rush works, for the most part. Fraternities also seem able to survive in a variety of sizes and spin it to their advantage (whether large, medium or small). Sororities don't. The smallest is usually looked at as the "weakest." Whether this is a male vs female thing or just what we've gotten used to, it's hard to say. You even hear guys saying this about sororities - it's not just a Panhellenic or nationals thing. However, it would be a hell of a leap of faith for the sororities to, at this point, throw quota and total out the window. It would most certainly bankrupt many, many chapters, if not a few national groups.

After 150 years, I don't think anyone wants to say "oh, let's just let the chips fall where they may."

carnation or someone who has more local insight could clarify, but I think a "survival of the fittest" situation is basically what has happened over the years at Arkansas, who just welcomed pledge classes of 130 members.

I want to be sure I understand what you are saying. It appears to me that you are advocating all the power in the hands of the PNM and none in the chapter's by saying that "a rushee should go to the chapters she chooses."

Are you saying that we have to have her in our homes with no regard to who/what she may be? That's what it looks like you are saying. Do you really want your daughter in a group who has to open their house/suite to whomever may want in???? Yikes! if that's the case.

As a former director of housing I am vehemently against this. There is enough trouble to go around with those we have vetted (thru the sponsor form process) and who received a bid. Let's not let anyone just wander over.

What's not "perfect" about the system is NOT that the women have to meet ALL the sororities but that decisions have to be made quickly with little information. Your plan doesn't fix that. There are still hundreds to over a thousand women going through recruitment at these schools. The majority of the women going through have NEVER heard of some of these chapters but happily find a home as a FIRST choice after meeting the women there.

I love how you latch onto the WORST case scenarios and present your small school recruitment model with likely a horrendous placement percentage as a solution. Good for you that it worked and that YOU wouldn't have cared that it hadn't. The problem is that MOST other women DO care when they go bidless. We get it, you had a great experience. Tout your experience, but put the appropriate caveats of # of PNMs rushing, # of PNMs placed, size of chapters and number of women who went bidless. Otherwise your stories are just cute stories from a bitter old women who likes to complain about walking up hill to and from school. BTW, silencing opinions go both ways, so trying to bully me with your overtly hostile post is not cool.

I'm also tired of posters acting as if recruitment has not been improved. It has, it will continue to be, and to act as though recruitment is the same as rush was a 100 years ago indicates a real lack of knowledge as to what modern recruitment is. We hear from many of those for whom recruitment did not work because those for whom it did are BUSY WITH THEIR SISTERS - not to mention the human tendency for people to complain when things go wrong, and not acknowledge when things go well. Look at the numbers - the vast majority of pnms WILL find a home and WILL have a positive Greek experience.

eta - As far as I know, Titchou, collegiate panhellenics have to submit their recruitment rules to the area panhellenic adviser, so she would already be aware of the requirement to attend all parties. Please correct me if my experience is not true of every campus.

It has nothing to do with the fact that your recruitment was different. Many advisors and National officers went through different styles of recruitment. It has everything to do with the fact that you have no involvement with recruitment today. You might understand otherwise.
In a sense, the pref invites are her "bids". Not literally of course. The PNM is on the chapter's bid list if a chapter invites her to pref. When she ranks them on her MRABA, she is putting them in order of preference, supposing she could choose from all of them.

Please, explain how this is not "right". You know why every NPC supports the RFM/forcing PNMs to return to all chapters to which they're invited? Because it benefits ALL NPCs. Every NPC, yes, even DG, has chapters somewhere that struggle. Working together (giving up some autonomy) and agreeing to recruitment practices (fairness) that help struggling chapters helps every NPC.

I really can't believe that you're an adult if you can't wrap your mind around the fact that if you want something, sometimes you have to jump through hoops. It's like the same people who complain about why they have to pay dues or why they have to visit nursing homes if they want to go to formal. No one forces anyone to be part of a sorority, but if you want to be a member, you have to agree to certain things.
You're not on the same page as the decision makers because you're an ostrich with its head in the ground who hasn't actually observed recruitment today. Your opinions are based on nothing more than your singular experience from 25+ years ago.

Your proposed fraternity style recruitment would be a step backward. Thank goodness we actually moved forward from that. I cringe when I read recruitment stories from the 80s and before and I see how PNMs have a full slate of invites from chapters who aren't really interested in them, then *poof* cut before preference.

RFM is a huge improvement. PNMs are finding homes (and would you believe it, they're HAPPY) in chapters they may have not considered before. Not everyone knows where they want to join when recruitment begins, so in. Plus, when more women are placed, there's less anti-Greek sentiment on campus. Chapters of every NPC would be far less stable and would close without it. Even chapters of DG would close.

No. I'm saying both should have equal opportunity to decline invitations - either issuing or accepting. As it currently stands, as I understand it, a rushee must attend all events to which she's invited (though there seems to be some dissension on this point, I've seen the policy in documents linked from this site), but may not decline an invitation to an event if she has room on her schedule. In my mind, that is not "mutual selection".

I think a person cannot argue with the fact that a LOT more girls are getting placed in chapters these days than before RFM was in place. No, it's not perfect and I think NPC would love to hear of a logical, fair, easy to incorporate system that allows more women to be placed in more chapters on as many campuses as possible, and with less heartache. It is no one's goal to leave any girls out in the cold, but the sorting hat only exists at Hogwarts, and short of that, there is going to be exclusion, top and bottom chapters and girls most and least desired by a lot of the chapters. It's just the way it is, and in the meantime a goal should be to be as nice as possible to all hosts and all guests. And that means, among other things, attending all parties to which you were invited. Unfortunately, you do sometimes have to dictate courtesy to people who don't know better. So you have free will vs. combatting teenagers who have not yet been trained in the social graces. What do you do?

I have to tell you, I just sat through a testimonial from a sister last night who was telling her chapter sisters not to discount girls who may have been disinterested early in the process. She didn't want us and cried when she got her bid, but in her own words, "I fell in love with all these wonderful women and I wouldn't have it any other way." She'd have been robbed of sisterhood and a wonderful experience without this system.

MEMBERSHIP selection is mutual - the chapter has to want the pnm; the pnm has to want the chapter. The chapter indicates they want a pnm by including her on their bid list(s) and inviting her to pref; a pnm indicates she wants a chapter by listing it (them) on her bid card. If she doesn't want a chapter she simply need not put it on her card - she runs a risk of not being placed at all. If a chapter doesn't want a pnm it will not invite her to pref.

PARTY selection is not mutual - all chapters have to invite all pnms to the first round; sometimes pnms have to go to all the parties to which they are invited. I don't see having to sit through a party for an hour at a chapter you might think you are not interested in as some horrible, awful torture pnms are forced to endure.

This....and since "we" are the organization which "owns" the thing the PNM wants and we can "give" it away, we should get to choose to whom we give it. If not then we could all be members of one or more groups. Hey, let's belong to all of them! Then it's not so special any longer...

I think it has indeed improved. The RFM system has been a godsend to smaller chapters and has built up the entire system where it has been used.
A few years before my rush (which was 1,055 years ago), the practice was for rushees to be invited to half the sororities for first round. You didn't even get to look at all the groups to begin with, and they didn't get a look at you.
The "open house" rounds where rushees visited every sorority was revolutionary at the time.

When I went thru in 1963 we all went to every house the first day. So anything less was before my time. And I had a very perfect rush...and am very lucky that I did. I don't know personally what it's like to not get invited back to a chapter. Many girls were in that boat with me however. And I'm the one who made the final selection. Back then at my school, you picked which pref you went to first and which second. By doing so, you indicated which group was tops with you at that point in time. If you went to the last pref, they were your top choice. I rather like that but have no idea how you would do it with 1400 PNMs! Rather tough to manage I would think.

Thank you, you have said this so well!

I did some math in another thread showing how a lower quota often helps a small chapter. If that small chapter wanted to release a ton of women to make quota artificially low, everyone else on campus would be outraged. The same is true when a PNM wants to skip parties. RFM requires everyone to play the game properly on both sides.

Exactly. Yes, the sorority members (or the PNMs, for that matter) might not be "your style" but for the love of all that's holy, you are going to have to learn to converse and be polite with people who are "not your style" at some point in your life. If you think every community meeting and work situation is going to be filled with people who are just like you who you'll be blabbing away intimately with in 2.5 seconds, you're in for a very rude awakening.

If the worst thing that happens to you ever is that you have to spend 20 minutes at a party with a girl who has nothing to say, your life is pretty easy peasy. To say that PNMs shouldn't have to go through it is just making the "entitlement generation" even worse.

Amen!

You're really passive aggressive, did you know that?

This isn't government.
Get off the cross, build a bridge and get over it.
Seriously stop with the martyrdom.
This is not an uncommon rule, I'm just very confused. What you're suggesting is notification over something that is a pretty common practice on most campuses just because you're unfamiliar with it. The rule says "MAY" because it is a sample rule. It means it's permissible for a campus to add that as a consequence to non-attendance at parties. In fact, in those rules, the PNM ones I bolded are actually bolded in the manual as well as well as bolding the one about the bid card agreement and the NO MEN/ALCOHOL rule.

I suppose what I'm trying to convey, past your "GEEZ LADIES GEEZ" is that you're the only one who thinks this is shocking. There's no 'blessing it' specifically, it's part of the campus panhellenic's rules and is not an unusual one. This does btw, exclude sickness/class/team practice generally speaking, in case that's your thought process here.

That is not to say that all schools have the same rules, for example.
On SMU's FAQ:
From U of Maryland
California State U: Long Beach
So you see, just from the ones posted publically there are a variety of different methods, but it is NOT strange to be pulled from recruitment if you miss a party and it IS legitimate and PNMs are informed of the rules ahead of time in their information packets, etc.

The reason you're getting pushback is that to some of us this is like saying you should report a school for not allowing balloons. Some schools allow them, but it's not weird to NOT allow them, it's relatively common.
I don't know for sure if that's the standard everywhere. I do know that when campuses change types of recruitment or yearly evaluate the recruitment process, the local NPC *person* is also involved.

THIS ^^^^^ SO, So true.

Count me as one who thinks modern recruitment is a definite improvement over what was in place in the 70s. I was an active in the early/mid 70's. And a Rush Counsellor. (Rho Chi today). Without RFM, Chapters, especially chapters that were very successful at formal recruitment would keep hundreds of girls in the early rounds that they KNEW THEY WOULD NEVER BID, or even invite to pref. They did this to keep excitement up, to keep their parties bulging at the seams and to get everyone panting at the thought of being part of the Hubba Hubba Mamas.

Meanwhile, Ruthie Rushee was thrilled to be invited to the HHMs, not realizing she was being used as party filler. In the meantime, Ruthie turned down invitations to chapters that were realistic possibilities...Chapters that would have loved to get to know her and perhaps, offer her a bid.

Come three party day, all of the fillers were let go, and sometime pref was a difficult evening if your heart's desire sorority let you go, and you were left with invitations you had not even considered, or worse, if you had received no pref invitations at all.

RFM can be tough on chapters (and advisors) the first year or so, until they understand how it works for them. Sometimes there is some snap bidding needed, but once everyone knows the landscape, RFM is a huge improvement. Is it perfect? No, but it is an improvement. Recruitment is more fair, more inclusive today than it was in the mid 70s. It is amazing to me how many girls are successfully placed, even when there are 1500 PNMs.

I see nothing wrong with asking girls to go to the parties that invited them. How tragic that a college woman would have to make polite chit chat with GASP, women from a sorority SHE DIDN'T WANT. Who knows, she might even change her mind. And if she doesn't, she has learned a grown up lesson in polite behavior.

While I realize that some campuses do this, that does not alter the fact that NPC says "may". therefore, I would still make sure the AA had blessed it. There are far too many places where peopletry to act outside the rules. Am dealing with something that would make your hair curl right now. So I would err on the side of informing the AA....now what exactly is wrong with that????

The fact that you used four question marks for one question and four periods for an ellipses?

It's not outside the rules, so why would people notify anyone? Again this is like telling people as a general rule to notify the AA that there are silence rules on campus, or that this campus has prohibited skits. I'm just saying that when you make a really blanket statement like that you're creating the potential for AAs to be overwhelmed by calls about something that isn't a problem, hypothetically speaking.

Particularly since it just appears to be a rule you're not familiar with and despite others telling you it's no big deal and happens frequently you're still insisting that "we" should notify someone.

You're asking "Why not?" without actually answering our "Why?" with anything other than "I don't know this rule."

ETA: I have to laugh at my hair curling due to a recruitment issue. I sincerely doubt that.

ETA Again: Ok seriously, what do you think the word "may" means except that this is a potential consequence? Again, these are sample rules and I even linked you a circumstance where one campus says "WILL" and others say "May result in you being cut." In your world do you say "May" and actually mean "Will not?"

I have no idea what you all are typing about but want to say, once again, that I love how seasoned the Greeks on GC are. An across-generation mix of Greek awesomeness. Lifetime memberships, indeed.

That is all.

Drolefille wrote:

Originally Posted by DGTess http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums...s/viewpost.gif
As I said, some have so kindly* reminded me I didn't go through the type of formal rush that some, or most, schools now use.

You're really passive aggressive, did you know that?

And?
Quote:
I know I don't have a say; that's what happens in any representative form of government.
This isn't government.

It's the chosen form of governance for the 26 NPC groups.

Quote:
So you have your opinion, and I have mine. I'll not silence mine.
Get off the cross, build a bridge and get over it.
Seriously stop with the martyrdom.

Don't like it? Don't read. I respect your right to your opinion; that's all I can do. There's an ignore option.

It's immature as hell.


Please do complain about how kindly* people are treating you again.

The point.





Your head.