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-   -   He, she or it? Family keeps baby's gender a secret (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=119970)

Munchkin03 05-26-2011 12:34 PM
The first time I read this, in a Yahoo! article, I thought that it was pretty cool. They weren't raising their children based on others' expectations of what boys and girls should do--granted, they're doing it in an extreme manner.

Then I read the Toronto Star article, that discussed more about them, and they just struck me as super tripped out on themselves. They kind of reminded me of LN, the character played by Maggie Gyllenhaal in "Away We Go." They also reminded me of people I went to college with who were super annoying.

If anything, the "no-schooling" bothers me more than the genderless upbringing. Kids need the social structure of school...even progressive programs like Waldorf and Montessori still have some structure!

KSUViolet06 05-26-2011 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchkin03 (Post 2058814)
If anything, the "no-schooling" bothers me more than the genderless upbringing. Kids need the social structure of school...even progressive programs like Waldorf and Montessori still have some structure!
I agree. I opened up a huge can of worms once with some pro-homeschooling people over this once. I don't think that homeschool is devil or anything, just that some people do it with the goal of isolating their kids socially (ex: saying things like "I don't want him/her to be influenced by other kids at school.")

DrPhil 05-26-2011 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BluPhire (Post 2058791)
But that's the whole point.

My response when I invoked God was in response to this portion.
LOL. I know what it was in response to. My response to your response remains. :) I also know that God and strong parenting can buffer some of the effects of that other stuff. :)

PiKA2001 05-26-2011 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSUViolet06 (Post 2058824)
some people do it with the goal of isolating their kids socially (ex: saying things like "I don't want him/her to be influenced by other kids at school.")
That's another thing-

I was wondering if these kids interact socially with other kids and I'm willing to bet the answer is NO.

AnotherKD 05-26-2011 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PiKA2001 (Post 2058827)
That's another thing-

I was wondering if these kids interact socially with other kids and I'm willing to bet the answer is NO.
I vaguely remember the story (it's not coming up on my computer now) about the kids trying to play with others, but the others didn't want to play with a "girl-boy" or something like that. Instead of trying to teach the other kids tolerance, the parents would just take their different-looking kid away. Same with when they wanted to buy that boa for the one boy- when the person at the counter questioned the purchase, they just left. So it seems like the parents are setting these kids up for failure by a lot of what they are doing and how they are handling (or not handling) hurdles that will inevitably come up.

Munchkin03 05-26-2011 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PiKA2001 (Post 2058827)
That's another thing-

I was wondering if these kids interact socially with other kids and I'm willing to bet the answer is NO.
No, they don't. The article in the Toronto Star is a lot more open about how unconventional they are. One of the two boys asked not to interact with any other kids because they make fun of him. :(

Kids need other kids. I know parents who did not like children (other than their own) and as a result did not encourage their kids to spend time with potential friends and peers...that is a pretty damaging thing to do to a child. This is far more willful and, I expect, more damaging.

Again--the "unschooling" thing bothers me more than the gender-neutral parenting.

DrPhil 05-26-2011 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchkin03 (Post 2058832)
One of the two boys asked not to interact with any other kids because they make fun of him. :(
:( And he isn't the only kid who feels that way. There are a lot of kids who would not go to school if they had the choice, not because they hate school but because they hate the kids at school for whatever reasons. Of course, all of the kids at school are generally saying and doing what they have learned from the (even Godly and strong parenting :p) adults.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchkin03 (Post 2058832)
Kids need other kids. I know parents who did not like children (other than their own) and as a result did not encourage their kids to spend time with potential friends and peers...that is a pretty damaging thing to do to a child. This is far more willful and, I expect, more damaging.
All things in moderation. But, life is so complex and non-formulaic that moderation can be extremely difficult.

preciousjeni 05-26-2011 11:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2058783)
I'd love to read more about this if you wrote a book about your "story."
You know I've considered it seriously. I'd be tempted to reveal a lot, which might prove scandalous within my church and family. I wouldn't mind it a bit, but I'm not the only one who would be affected.

Elephant Walk 05-27-2011 04:20 AM
Parents who are very into themselves

DTD Alum 05-28-2011 03:51 PM
Torn. There are huge biological differences between the way male and female children's brains are set up and how they affect behavior ranging from adherence to "rules", the way toys are played with, communication skills, bonding with other children and coincidentally how susceptible they are to gender roles (male children are much more likely to dismiss activities purely because of gender roles than females are).

That being said, social constructs (boys like sports, girls like dance) are ludicrous. The way the brains are set up means that boys and girls will approach the same activities with very different goals and ways they derive enjoyment from them, but the fact that one gender will enjoy something more is socially constructed. As a child and teenager I was extremely passionate about dance, something with which I was heavily ridiculed by my peers (to the point I dropped it in college, only to pick it up after I graduated when I became more comfortable with who I am and gained self esteem). My family was always beyond supportive, but it did hurt to be told by peers that I wasn't a "boy" because of something I liked.

At the end of the day though, I think I side with those who are saying it is more important to breed an attitude of "even though you are [X] gender, you can enjoy [X] activity." By eliminating the fact that we are born either male or female, I think you are losing a lot of the progress that needs to be made. I think it's more powerful to say, "I'm a boy and want to dance ballet" or "I'm a girl and want to play rugby" than to say "I don't associate with a gender so I can do anything I want". By making that sort of statement I think you are subtly implying that if you WERE to choose a gender then things would be off limits. I can see both sides though.

preciousjeni 05-28-2011 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTD Alum (Post 2059292)
I think it's more powerful to say, "I'm a boy and want to dance ballet" or "I'm a girl and want to play rugby" than to say "I don't associate with a gender so I can do anything I want". By making that sort of statement I think you are subtly implying that if you WERE to choose a gender then things would be off limits.
You make a really interesting point.

MysticCat 05-28-2011 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTD Alum (Post 2059292)
At the end of the day though, I think I side with those who are saying it is more important to breed an attitude of "even though you are [X] gender, you can enjoy [X] activity." By eliminating the fact that we are born either male or female, I think you are losing a lot of the progress that needs to be made. I think it's more powerful to say, "I'm a boy and want to dance ballet" or "I'm a girl and want to play rugby" than to say "I don't associate with a gender so I can do anything I want". By making that sort of statement I think you are subtly implying that if you WERE to choose a gender then things would be off limits. I can see both sides though.
Of anything I've read in this thread, I think this comes closest to my own thoughts.

AGDee 05-28-2011 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 2059304)
Of anything I've read in this thread, I think this comes closest to my own thoughts.
Agreed.

southbymidwest 05-28-2011 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTD Alum (Post 2059292)
Torn. There are huge biological differences between the way male and female children's brains are set up and how they affect behavior ranging from adherence to "rules", the way toys are played with, communication skills, bonding with other children and coincidentally how susceptible they are to gender roles (male children are much more likely to dismiss activities purely because of gender roles than females are).

That being said, social constructs (boys like sports, girls like dance) are ludicrous. The way the brains are set up means that boys and girls will approach the same activities with very different goals and ways they derive enjoyment from them, but the fact that one gender will enjoy something more is socially constructed. As a child and teenager I was extremely passionate about dance, something with which I was heavily ridiculed by my peers (to the point I dropped it in college, only to pick it up after I graduated when I became more comfortable with who I am and gained self esteem). My family was always beyond supportive, but it did hurt to be told by peers that I wasn't a "boy" because of something I liked.

At the end of the day though, I think I side with those who are saying it is more important to breed an attitude of "even though you are [X] gender, you can enjoy [X] activity." By eliminating the fact that we are born either male or female, I think you are losing a lot of the progress that needs to be made. I think it's more powerful to say, "I'm a boy and want to dance ballet" or "I'm a girl and want to play rugby" than to say "I don't associate with a gender so I can do anything I want". By making that sort of statement I think you are subtly implying that if you WERE to choose a gender then things would be off limits. I can see both sides though.
Very, very well said. I'm the the mom of two very sports-involved girls, and I think you have hit the nail on the head. You were able to articulate what was rolling around in my head much more clearly than what I could have said.

DrPhil 05-28-2011 09:07 PM
If what DTD Alum said was that simple and straightforward, more parents who feel as these parents do would do what DTD Alum stated; and gender constructs would be less resistant to change.

The fact that 99% of parents don't do that (even if they claim that they do) perhaps means that doing that is no less difficult and no more logical than withholding the child's gender in the first place.

The EASIEST thing is to do what people do everyday. Divulge the child's biological sex, exaggerate the role of biology in determining gender, and go with the existing gender structure of "girls do this" and "boys do that."

CutiePie2000 05-28-2011 10:04 PM
When I had the opportunity to have a guided tour of the Palace of Versailles in France, I vaguely remember that there was a portrait there of a child wearing a dress. Some people commented of "what a lovely girl in the painting!"

The guide pointed it out and said that the child in the portrait was actually a boy (possibly Louis as a child, but I cannot say for sure..this was a trip that I took in 2006), not a girl -- back in the time of when the portrait was painted, that it wasn't really the custom in France to differentiate as strongly between boys and girls until the child was approximately age 5.

I thought that was interesting.

Drolefille 05-28-2011 10:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutiePie2000 (Post 2059333)
When I had the opportunity to have a guided tour of the Palace of Versailles in France, I vaguely remember that there was a portrait there of a child wearing a dress. Some people commented of "what a lovely girl in the painting!"

The guide pointed it out and said that the child in the portrait was actually a boy (possibly Louis as a child, but I cannot say for sure..this was a trip that I took in 2006), not a girl -- back in the time of when the portrait was painted, that it wasn't really the custom in France to differentiate as strongly between boys and girls until the child was approximately age 5.

I thought that was interesting.
Also pink was a male color as it was a watered down red and girls would have worn 'baby blue' as blue was a female color and associated with the virgin. Assuming one had the money for blue that is.

Sometimes they're not sure if it's a son or a daughter int he painting and they'll look at what the child's holding, a teething 'toy' is male, etc. It's very interesting.

MysticCat 05-28-2011 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CutiePie2000 (Post 2059333)
When I had the opportunity to have a guided tour of the Palace of Versailles in France, I vaguely remember that there was a portrait there of a child wearing a dress. Some people commented of "what a lovely girl in the painting!"

The guide pointed it out and said that the child in the portrait was actually a boy (possibly Louis as a child, but I cannot say for sure..this was a trip that I took in 2006), not a girl -- back in the time of when the portrait was painted, that it wasn't really the custom in France to differentiate as strongly between boys and girls until the child was approximately age 5.
We have a similar picture of my grandfather (wearing white) from around 1900. That was the custom here, as well.

He hated that picture by the way.

As for the parents this thread is about, I don't know. It just seems to me they are trading one set of problems and challenges for a different set of problems and challenges. Sure, what DTD Alum describes is very hard to do, even when one is trying to be intentional about it. But I think I'd rather try to do that and not succeed completely than do what these parents are doing.

But it's their choice. Parenthood, like much else in life, is all about choices.

DTD Alum 05-28-2011 11:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2059330)
The fact that 99% of parents don't do that (even if they claim that they do) perhaps means that doing that is no less difficult and no more logical than withholding the child's gender in the first place.
I disagree completely, but I guess everybody views this topic differently.

PiKA2001 06-28-2011 04:23 PM
And another one.
 
http://beta.news.yahoo.com/no-him-he...122541829.html

Quote:
At the "Egalia" preschool, staff avoid using words like "him" or "her" and address the 33 kids as "friends" rather than girls and boys.
From the color and placement of toys to the choice of books, every detail has been carefully planned to make sure the children don't fall into gender stereotypes.
Quote:
Some parents worry things have gone too far. An obsession with obliterating gender roles, they say, could make the children confused and ill-prepared to face the world outside kindergarten.
"Different gender roles aren't problematic as long as they are equally valued," says Tanja Bergkvist, a 37-year-old blogger and a leading voice against what she calls "gender madness" in Sweden.
I totally agree with this blogger.

Quote:
Nearly all the children's books deal with homosexual couples, single parents or adopted children. There are no "Snow White," ''Cinderella" or other classic fairy tales seen as cementing stereotypes.
Hmmmm. I do think that children should be exposed to nontraditional families BUT not at the extent of ostracizing stories of traditional families. I think they need at least an equal balance. Will the kids who have a mom and dad living together at home feel as though they aren't part of a normal family?

Quote:
Egalia is unusual even for Sweden. Staff try to shed masculine and feminine references from their speech, including the pronouns him or her — "han" or "hon" in Swedish. Instead, they've have adopted the genderless "hen," a word that doesn't exist in Swedish but is used in some feminist and gay circles.
I don't know about this...LOL.

Well, good luck in trying to deconstruct hundreds of thousands of years of social development!

preciousjeni 06-28-2011 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PiKA2001 (Post 2066339)
Well, good luck in trying to deconstruct hundreds of thousands of years of social development!
...which has, of course, led to a variety of genders.

DrPhil 06-28-2011 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by preciousjeni (Post 2066341)
...which has, of course, led to a variety of genders.
Yep there are countries that formally acknowledge more than 2 genders.

As for what PiKA posted, anything can be taken to the extreme. All things in moderation. Yet and still, most people do not see the extreme in how the average person applies the traditional gender structure.

DrPhil 07-29-2012 03:37 PM
This was discussed with a group of people last night. Almost all of them got offended and angry at the idea of hints of gender neutrality or genderless. All of the men were offended and extremely angry by the idea.

KSig RC 07-29-2012 11:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2162656)
This was discussed with a group of people last night. Almost all of them got offended and angry at the idea of hints of gender neutrality or genderless. All of the men were offended and extremely angry by the idea.
Cognitive dissonance?

DrPhil 07-30-2012 05:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSig RC (Post 2162735)
Cognitive dissonance?
I think so. It matched the other things some of the people in the group were saying about other topics so I was not shocked but rather amused by their level of offense and anger.

pshsx1 07-30-2012 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2058598)
This is no more of a social experiment than parents who choose to discipline their children differently than they were disciplined as children.

With that said, no, the way they raised their child will not be flawed just because people think the children are girls and treat them as such. These parents aren't claiming that gender mysteriously disappears just because they don't reveal the child's gender. This child may be perfectly fine identifying as A GENDER but this family wants that to not be forced on the child before the child even establishes its own personality type. I absolutely hate gendered babyshowers and gendered babyrooms. There are other forms of socialization that children undergo and gender doesn't have to be one of them. That's fine if others like gender socialization but not everyone does. :)

ETA: Now, the "boy" in this story wants the parents to tell people that "he is a he." That could be the "boy" making his official statement about what "he" self-identifies as; or it could be the "boy" doing this out of societal pressure--and noticing that the boys are consistently treated better than girls are. Either way, the parents need to think about letting this "boy" make "his" decision to be identified as a "boy." That "boy" may still choose to have long hair and wear pink. I doubt that. "He" will probably stop wearing pink and cut "his" hair because "he" will want to be like society expects "him" to be.



Gender is not completely natural. Much of it is socially constructed because it is different from biological sex. That's the point. But, since you think it's natural, you can understand why simply teaching your sons that they can prefer dance and still be masculine (who's to say that sons have to want to be masculine?) is not enough.



All parents use their children to make statements. It's simply a matter of which statements they are making.

ETA: Regardless of the statement that the parents are making, I really hope these children aren't emotionally and mentally harmed by any of this. Children are mentally and emotionally negatively (and positively) impacted by gender everyday.



Gender wouldn't exist if it wasn't for socialization and stereotyping. It's the cliche` "chicken or the egg" thing.

I agree that that doesn't mean that the existence of gender is a "problem" just as other categorical distinctions aren't inherently "problems." But, there are plenty of people who find it problematic for various reasons.
Quoting because all of this is wonderful and beautiful. You win the internet. :) :)

pshsx1 07-30-2012 06:37 PM
Also, here's a "genderbread" person to help anyone distinguish sex from gender. :)

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/20...34-d42bgst.jpg

sigmagirl2000 07-30-2012 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pshsx1 (Post 2162856)
Also, here's a "genderbread" person to help anyone distinguish sex from gender. :)

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/20...34-d42bgst.jpg
That's awesome. Mind if I use this to clarify for confused students/ (co-workers)?

pshsx1 07-30-2012 06:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sigmagirl2000 (Post 2162857)
That's awesome. Mind if I use this to clarify for confused students/ (co-workers)?
Go for it! It's not mine, but I use it for presentations for students and faculty as well.

DrPhil 07-30-2012 06:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pshsx1 (Post 2162853)
Quoting because all of this is wonderful and beautiful. You win the internet. :) :)
LOL. The people at the event I attended over the weekend wanted to fight me for saying that. How dare I.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pshsx1 (Post 2162856)
Also, here's a "genderbread" person to help anyone distinguish sex from gender. :)

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs71/f/20...34-d42bgst.jpg
Awesome.

I just wish they spelled "feminine" correctly. ;)


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