Hence my disclaimer of "no preclivity for wild behavior, and the wish for a successful rush".

A major part of attending round up events, whether you are a guy or a girl, is knowing that you are being observed. If you act like an embarrassment to yourself, nobody is going to want you to be an embarrassment to their organization - so don't act like a drunk fool or an obnoxious creeper.

That also goes for posting bad pictures on facebook, making outrageous wall posts, etc.

So basically you're a long graduated SWT alum who claims his source is a couple of active sorority girls. Awesome that you're able to spout your expertise here based on a bunch of hearsay. Since you insist, I will tell you exactly what items in your post are untruths, but really, Carnation ought to be deleting your posts because once again you are publicly libeling an entire Greek system, but in particular the sororities.

Is there a boy in the girl lane? Where is the State Patrol when you need one?

He did ok in the girl lane before and I told him so. My bad. Apparently his head has swelled like Peter Brady's after he prevented an accident.

It is all 33girl's fault.

I am more humored by his saying he's open to correction, and he stands by what he says, but he'd be happy to admit if he's wrong. Confusion.

Texas makes its own rules, yes. I found it sort of surprising when I first moved there and they had summer rush parties in Dallas. HUGE no no where I came from in Florida. There are houses where the girls have already decided who is cut from first round before the actual first round.

That's a bit much. From what I've read on here, Texas is hardly the only school that does that.

Word. It's not quite that drastic but if someone can come up with a better way to cut 400 plus pnms after a 20 minute party, I'd love to hear about it.

*LANE SWERVE* *LANE SWERVE* *LANE SWERVE*

My idea for UT-Austin: hold recruitment 2nd semester, freshman year.

During the 1st semester freshman year have a couple of "Meet the Greek" events where the NPC members can meet some of the PNMs on a "non-selective" basis, and the PNMs can do the same. This way both parties get to know each other, in a way.

So, when recruitment happens the 2nd semester, both sides have worked out who they will target during the recruitment process. Maybe in this way cutting 400 PNMs after a 20 minute meeting may not seem so pressured (if that is the right word.)

Not fool-proof, but maybe a little less daunting for both sides.

When you get the legislature pounding on the regents, alumni suing, and donors responsible for things like the McCombs school of business in your ear so that you'll take more a hands off approach, then that's what you get. The same is true in a lot of other old big greeks systems at tier 1 universities, but UT seems to be more the wild west on some specific ways of doing things. It's not unregulated, and it's not necessarily all that bad a thing. It's just different & to some extent has to be seen to be believed or understood.

I am a long graduated SWT alum who served several years on the advisory board for our chapter at UT, and do have quite a bit more experience and connections to base my knowledge on than a couple sorority actives. BUT...

I'm not claiming to be an expert, nor would I expect anyone else to regardless of their experience.

To the extent this thread is about sorority recruitment, I clearly defer to sorority women. I advised two things. I said I would accept a little risk to gain all the advantage I could get. That's my personality. Anyone reading that view can decide for themselves if the risks of showing up to roundup versus not is too big a risk to make them more competitive. The other thing I said was I don't think it important that they go to social events; the daytime philanthropy oriented events by each sorority are a very good compromise to see/be seen without much risk of making a fool of yourself.

In regard to your complaints about what I said, I was just shooting off the cuff. Maybe I wasn't very clear. I'll try to clarify.

VIP: there's normally a blocked off area, upstairs or whatever. I wouldn't send a future PNM there to get recruited, but it is a different aspect of the party then the crowded club scene downstairs or out back.

Small tight knit: UT has a huge greek system. Yes, once into that you know a lot of people and do look out for each other. But, it isn't like a much smaller community where everyone knows everyone. Plenty acts of random kindness happen, but a random girl no one knows passed out at a party isn't necessarily going to be instantly snatched up and cared for by the first greek that sees her. I'm not saying anything bad about UT, it's just the dynamics of big groups. If you try to take care of every single seriously drunk person you see, that's all you'll ever be doing.

Chapter size: Sororities at UT are absolutely in that top tier in size. There's pros & cons to that. One of the cons is you aren't going to know every girl as well as you do in smaller chapters. I have seen dozen of instances where a girl didn't know another girl was in her sorority. I'm not saying every chapter at UT is like that, I wouldn't begin to know, but it does happen. Some people may think that's a bad thing, but the other side of that coin is they're able to accomplish spectacular things and raise huge amounts for their philanthropies because they have that kind of resources to work with. They're still good chapters, it's just different than what a lot of other greeks experience.

West Campus: the vast majority of fraternity houses are in west campus, which is all walking distance. Stuff will happen downtown & elsewhere, but west campus has always been ground zero.

Blackouts: they happen everywhere. Again just the rule of large numbers. One person passed out on the couch in a 15k square foot house that's had several hundred at a party is less surprising than another campus where they had a hundred people there total for the night. It's nothing bad about UT, it just happens.

Pledge Class mixers: Most sororities do pledge class mixers about weekly. I don't know that every sorority does it or tolerates what a lot of them are doing, but a good number of those events are at fraternity houses with a lot of alcohol. It's not necessarily bad, there are chaperons and rides, but it is done pretty openly. The only reason I mentioned it was to point out that Texas plays by a little bit different set of rules than a lot of other places.

Drunker: I've been involved with greek systems and fraternity chapters all over the country. UT is unique. It comes with its own advantages and disadvantages that are different than other places. It is not unregulated, but in some specific respects it is more the wild west than folks from a lot of other places would believe without seeing it. In other ways it's more regulated than other places. It's just different. I think any place you have a very large old greek system (ie money to spend on parties) based in walking distance to a campus (accessibility) where there are wet houses in a moderately regulated system (opportunity) you're going to get a very large party scene that isn't necessarily the norm everywhere else. That isn't bad about UT, but it is different.

Anyway, that is what I was trying to say about UT in general. I'm sure readers would welcome any different views you care to offer, and they can make up their own minds. Again, with regard to sorority recruitment I don't particularly claim any expertise and would defer to others on that aspect. I was just trying to inform outside greeks of my knowledge of the environment so they can form their own advice for the OP & anyone else that may happen along the thread in the future. I'm sorry my swerve touched a nerve. Moving on. :cool:

Nice idea, but what you get is a semester-long recruitment.

So I guess I'll repeat my question from earlier... Do the national organizations know that pledge class mixers with underage drinking are going on and they look the other way because it is UT? That's how this reads and I'm asking rather than jumping to conclusions. The way this is said it sounds like chapters at UT do not have to abide by the same risk management guidelines other chapters do. From what others have said, it sounds like big and/or important chapters in the South don't have to abide by the risk management policies either. Again, I'm ASKING.

No kidding...dnall sounds like one of the peeps from the Another Reason to Think Before You Send An Email thread but we should amend it to read Another Reason to Think Before You Post to a Thread.

I thought that relatively speaking (as in when you compare it with the SEC or other big systems in Texas) UT had some of the smaller chapters out there, it was well nigh impossible to colonize there, and that's what was making it so crazy competitive. Or am I thinking of someplace else?

Sallie - if it is the case, hopefully people have taken the hint from the latest drinking in letters thread/kids these days can't STFU and are keeping their mouths shut. ;) Tho judging from some of the posts in this thread, not so much.

True.

I was thinking that it would give each side an amount of time to figure one another out.

When I went through several years back, for NPHC we had to wait until you had 30 hours - basically you could not pledge until your sophomore year.

Just to be clear for those who don't know (not you), that only pertains to certain NPHC orgs and certain colleges/universities.

Delta, for instance, requires 24 semester hours. Some chapters and schools allow first years to "pledge" if they took college credits prior to their freshwoman year. If everyone in a chapter waited until sophomore year (or later), it is often because they didn't have eligible first years, not because they don't allow first years.

Or maybe it was just a campus thing. I crossed pre-MIP and that is how it was on my campus.

My understanding at the time was the "30-hour rule" was NPHC wide.

It could have been a campus thing and in that case, as you stated, it would apply to all the NPHC chapters on your campus.

For example, Fisk still has the minimum university requirement of 30 credit hours, sophomore status for membership; and preferably a 4th semester sophomore. That is a university requirement. The NPHC orgs may set higher requirements but students can't go below the university's minimum of 30 hours even if the NPHC org (i.e. Delta) has a national semester credit hour requirement of 24. University trumps GLO requirement in this instance.

As far as I know, the NPHC hasn't, in the 1980s and beyond,had NPHC-wide policies regarding GPA and credit hours. Those were organization-specific except when based on campus policies. Someone please correct me if I am incorrect. :)

I think most of the UT chapters have 170+ girls in them. Not sure what total is right now. I don't know if you consider that bigger than average. Maybe not for an SEC school but they run about the same as Texas A&M but not as big as say LSU or Ole Miss.

UT sorority sizes... I have no idea what total is. I know my ex's chapter was ballpark of 200. Point being it's huge chapters that are not the norm at the vast majority of schools in the country.

I have no idea what any sorority national knows or doesn't know about those events. I'm sure the chapters themselves would explain them as not sorority functions, but set up by a pledge class social chair with active chaperons makes that a tough sell.

I get the think before you post statement, but I'm not defending their system. Their nationals should probably hold them accountable like every other campus, but that's not my business. Trust me when I say I'm not spilling out the gory details or throwing any particular sorority under the bus.

Just speaking for fraternities, the execution of risk mgmt policy there is different than most campuses. It's not horrible, and some of what they do I like, but some things are completely acceptable there that would get a chapter instantly thrown off at a lot of other campuses.

Some of it is because a several successful fraternity chapters are not recognized by the university. The greek system is just not that dependent on the university to do much for them - at least on the fraternity side. If the school were to crack down on anything, it would hurt the on-campus chapters while helping the off-campus chapters, which defeats the purpose. You can debate why so many nationals have let chapters retain a charter without university oversight, but prominent donor alumni might have a little something to do with it. It's just a strange world there. I think most fraternities at other schools would love to be able to operate in that regulatory environment.

As far as deferred recruitment, that's a money thing. You miss out on a semester of dues from X number of people every year. And, you spend a ton on events all fall with a lot of non-members (with limited insurance coverage) at your functions.

Then there's regulatory issues. I'll use a different Texas school (NOT UT) as an example. Guys/girls there have to make grades & no alcohol/etc violations in order to take a bid in spring. On the fraternity side, it leads to a lot of underground bids, and then not reported to nationals because they share rosters with the University. They end up with unreported initiates w/o insurance coverage. It snowballs into a bad situation. Sororities don't operate that far out of the rules, but it does hurt their recruiting pool.

In principle, I like the idea of waiting a semester to get to learn people's character, and see their grades & behavior without parental supervision. But, functionally it can be a nightmare. I know it works some places, but I don't like it from a practical standpoint.

This point is moot for NPC groups. It's also moot at schools where non-fraternity members are actually allowed to attend fraternity parties (which has been stamped out in many places - necessary evil per whack ass insurance policies, but one which only fosters the Greek vs. non-Greek animosity).

This point is incorrect for NPC and NIC groups if deferred rush leads to greater member satisfaction and greater member retention (i.e. it does no good to have the biggest pledge class every year if 1/2 of them are gone by the time they're seniors).

Kind of... I mean I understand what you're saying and I do want to agree with you, but there's two sides to every coin.

NPC groups in that enviro (from my experience) do still spend money. Not on big social events like a fraternity wouls, but more on a lot of little philanthropy &/or ice cream social kind of things in order to keep their name out there and create contact opportunities. It becomes like low-key rush all fall, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but is a lot of work & some expense.

Enforcement on a given campus is a different topic, but as far as insurance... open-parties are for sure not allowed by any national's policy I know of. Which is fine. I didn't like paying for randoms anyway. There are supposed to be guest restrictions - other org (mixers) or 1-2 guests per member. Nothing says all those guests have to be the opposite sex though. You should still be able to invite prospects by name. If there's a school saying otherwise, I'd like to get a look at that policy.

I really really do appreciate the view about satisfaction/retention. I believe values based recruiting leads to pledges who matched up closely with the org philosophy/mission prior to showing up on campus. That produces greater satisfaction, dedication, and retention. I absolutely do thing deferred has the most potential to accomplish that, but there's also a lot of problems with it in practice from a business perspective.

Fall vs Spring pledges don't directly impact house occupancy. It may have a slight impact on parlor fees & meal plans. Dues is a bigger debate. For sure you're giving up the JI semester for two-thirds plus of your members. You can make an argument that if you slide that to the end and you retain more in the last semester of their senior year that it'll end up even. I don't necessarily disagree with that, but there's just so much else that far into a greek experience that can impact satisfaction/retention. I feel like if retention is that big an issue than there's a laundry list of other things you can do before you get to deferred.

The biggest impact though is the rush pool. Admittedly this is more an issue for fraternities, but the net effect is the same.

There's people that don't make grades or get in trouble first semester. So they want to rush but can't. For sure there is an argument that you don't want those folks anyway, cause they're likely to have grade/behavior problems later as an active. There's some truth to that, but I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt given it's first semester away from home and w/o the org structure forcing them to get their stuff done.

There's also the new guy factor. A lot of people rush cause they're new to campus and don't know many or anyone else. If you give them a semester to settle in, a lot of those people will make their own friends and not see the need for a greek org by the time the chance to rush comes around.

The net effect is the rush pool drops. That does translate to chapter total/avg, and does effect occupancy/finances.

There's a debate to be had if it's worth it or not. I've seen it work okay in a few places. Those were mostly smaller schools with a very high greek percentage in towns where there isn't a lot else to do unless you're greek. The majority of campuses though, I just don't know if it's the best move. Like the example I gave, there's a lot potential negative side-effects too. That's just got to be a really individual decision for each campus.

I do really hate the way sorority rush works though (no offense). I would be a lot more supportive of deferred for them than for fraternities.

That's what I'm talking about. Bobby Beta should be able to invite his friend Eddie Engineering Major who's a senior who never had time to pledge a fraternity between his major and being an R.A., but he's a good guy that all the brothers like. It's not necessarily a rush thing, just being able to invite people who aren't your brothers (and showing you can have a life/friends outside your org).

It depends what you consider "values based recruiting." Quite frankly, all those mission statements and taglines sound a lot alike anyway...I know we had a thread about this a while back. Basically: people join GLOs that have people they like in them. GLOs choose people they like to be in their organization. (as far as NIC and NPC, anyway) Until we stop rushing the way we do, that won't change - i.e. you're not going to pick the saint if no one can stand him/her. I mean if I would have rushed based on the philanthropy, there are other groups on campus that would have spoken to me more than mine did. I know you said your group still has a strong Christian focus, so you most likely have a far different perspective on this concept than most people do.

It's horribly un-PC, but I completely agree. Boys and girls are different because they are different. Period.

I don't know of any fraternity or school where you couldn't invite that guy. It may cut into the number of girls you can invite is all. If there's some rule out there about only opposite sex guests, please send it to me so I can share it with some lawyer friends of mine.

You absolutely can have a life outside your org, which doesn't occur at org functions. Take your buddy to the bar with your brothers in tow. A lot of inter-fraternity relations happen that way too.

In the end though it should be limited. Not even really for insurance purposes. If I invite a guy from work out with my buddies, he better not expect we're going to pick up his bar tab. But you invite someone to a fraternity function and they just assume your stuff is their stuff. That's really not fair to the dues paying brothers. It's theft really. Rush invites are fine. A friend from out of town every now and then is ok. Some buddy here or there if chapter agrees to it. But, stuff like that shouldn't be habitual. It's just not fair. Plus, why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free.

I do mean a certain thing about my org when I say values based recruiting, cause the kid that already basically believes in our philosophy/mission is going to take to it more easily than the kid who we tell to throw out everything he believes and shape the rest of his life around what we're about to force him to learn. But that's a deeper level than what I was actually going for.

Regardless what an org is about, the members share more than clique factors that bind them together. It may be how high they value academics versus intramurals or what kind of people they hang out with or whatever, but there's some things that aren't immediately obvious, and that rush is probably the very worst place to figure out with any certainty, either for the PNM or the org.

Deferred does have the advantage that those folks are sitting on your campus waiting to be sought out, evaluated, befriended, recruited, and locked in well before sign-up for formal is ever announced. Traditional - I mean targeting those kids in high school over break is a lot harder to do, but is worthwhile if you have the resources/logistics.

I just think deferred is great in theory and very problematic in practice. As much as I want to like the concept, I can't see the situation where I'd propose it as policy on almost any campus.

:confused: You mentioned "prospects" which made me think you were only looking at inviting guys to a party as a rush tool.

That would be prob the main reason I'd tolerate that kind of thing on a semi-regular basis. Cow & the milk thing again.

There shouldn't be a rules about it, but fraternities shouldn't give it away like that either. Girls abuse it enough already.

Yeah, see, that's exactly what I meant about fostering animosity. Then again, we paid to get into parties. I can see where if you were silly enough to have free parties all the time it would breed resentment.

Yeah, that's a really bad idea. For a whole lot of reasons.

Yes, how terribly unfair that the boys have to pay up to get the girls drunk and loose. Obviously, the girls should be responsible for that themselves, eince it's really only to their benefit.:rolleyes:

Is this the case at SMU? I'm trying to come up with the deferred-rush schools that are most similar to Texas socially. Maybe SMU and UVA.
________
\

Yeah I was thinking about SMU when writing that, but I didn't want to get too far down in the weeds about just them when we were trying to talk about the broader concept of deferred.