Got it! Thanks!

33: I see your points, but AOX said they have hunts. New member hunts are written in the Green Book as hazing. No matter how safe and non hurtful they are meant to be.

I have said nothing that is unfouded. I was attempting to say that an attitude of "a little hazing is OK" will eventually catch up with a group and with my experience I have learned to see that a little hazing is not OK and when I had to begin thinking for not just a chapter is when that changed.

I'm not bashing, just pointing out the facts. I have appreciation for locals, I was in one.

To each their own.

I know this is going to anger a lot of people, but I just need to say it. Reading the last couple pages of posts made me laugh. Not in a "it's funny" type of way, but rather a "look what our world is turing into" type of way. I'm sorry, I was on the Executive Board of my council and I met with Nationals and am fully aware of risks. But do any of you realize that there is a risk in ANYTHING you do? Maybe some of you people should hole up in your rooms and not go outside for the rest of your life beacuse something bad MIGHT happen to you. Walking out your door a brick might fall from the sky and knock you on the head. The point is, YOU NEVER KNOW. It is sad to me that we as a society are so afraid to do anything anymore that we are all becoming a group of scared, sad people. I, IN NO WAY approve of beatings, forced activity, etc. but visiting your sisters?? GIVE ME A BREAK!! I would have NEVER met all of my sisters if I had not done visits with them. I wouldn't have taken the time. I have a small chapter, so it was easy for us. They were the most fun and memorable thing I did while pledging. I met with sisters and talked to them, wrote down their address and phone numbers, life goals, etc. They in turn wrote me a nice letter and gave me stickers. As an active member I looked forward to these times with the new girls the most. I get to know people more in that alone time than any group activity EVER could.
It was true bonding and I have the pleasure of saying I KNOW ALL of my sisters inside and out, and I NEVER had to memorize anything. I WANTED TO KNOW THEM. And now, beacuse our society is out of control, we are not allowed. Our sisterhood does not seem nearly as close as it once was.

Pretty soon it is going to escalate to the point where we will not even be allowed to touch eachother. This is why this whole issue is just so sad.

33girl, I just want to say that I completely agree with you.

KristiAZD - What are visits?

KristiAZD,

I am applauding the spirit you wrote this post in. No Fear people, but show some common sense is kind of what I got out of it. You should go pretty far with this attitude. If we live in constant fear of censure will we become in the words of Theodore Roosevelt:

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions,and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."

I would certainly rather go out of this life striving for greatness in all things than being inhibited by taking the counsel of my fears. Thank you for the reminder of who we are supposed to be. :)

Kristi: I agree.

I don't think trying to function within the guidleins set out by NPC and our national organizations make anyone scared to do anything. The reason they call it an unanimous agreement is b/c all of our orgs voted in favor of adopting a 0 hazing tolerance.

Call me crazy, but if a national organization and our governing body decides some things are inappropriate, I find myself thinking these women have more experience and know what they are talking about. I don't pick and choose what I want to regard as important and what is not.

Yes, interviews and hunts would be fun, but there are other ways to bond. I knew every one of my 65 sisters and didn't take one interview.

We can all agree to disagree.

Thank you 33.

And by the way LexiKD, we did a scavenger hunt for a rush event and yes the school knew about it as well as the NPC sororities. Everything was planned ahead of time, things were turned in so they knew exactly what we would be doing, where were going...if someone didn't want to participate then they didn't! If girls choose not to go then we have girls that stay behind and they do something else. Hazing would be making someone participate when they did not want to.

And yes, the other NPC sororities at my school also have scavenger hunts. If nothing bad is being done people just need to mind their own business! We don't call up the nationals and say hey come check out what your chapter at our school is doing...that's just plain stupid.

This is such a lost cause. See you all in a week...

Thank you James, for understanding what I was trying to say.
Cream, I guess visits are like other group's interviews. There was a list of things you needed to ask, but they were innocent things that one would need to know anyway and acted as a reference. We would ask them their full name, home address, phone number, major, birthday, etc. Also, we have Rose Families and Big Families and we asked them who was in their line. Then we got to choose at least two questions (but you could ask more) you would make up. A lot og girls would ask things like favorie, animal, color, movie, etc. but I wanted to go deeper so I asked things like favoerite college memory. Then you would give the piece of paper (or book depending how you wanted to keep the record) to the sister and she would write you a nice letter on it and decorate it with stickers. What would take 20 minutes easily turned into an hour or more beacuse asking different questions would get the two of you talking. GOing on visits was so much fun for me, and I really enjoyed it when girls came to visit me. It's one on one and personal, and with all of our schedules it's hard for us to find time where we're all together and can do stuff like that. I never considered it hazing in a ny way, and neither did the other girls going through. THere are other organizations on my campus that do things like this, but I would consider the way they do it to be hazing. The girls are required to have their book on them at all times and if a sister askes to see it and they don't have it, they get in trouble. We in no way would do something like that. We just did visits to be able to get personal with every single sister. I loved them, and I wish they weren't outlawed.:(

We had interviews when I pledged and when I was a sister. I didn't know they were forbidden. I enjoyed that on both sides. We also had to get every sisters signature every week of pledging which was a way of staying in touch with everyone. I didn't think that that was a bad thing. Oh well.

I had a scavenger hunt during pledging. Our pledge mom, assistant pledge mom and a few other sisters went with us. It was a riot. I didn't feel hazed by it at all.

We did interviews too. I liked them. I got to know the older girls who weren't around a lot.

Compared to other things we had to go through, these weren't bad.

No matter if a new member has to participate or not, it still is hazing. If you do not feel hazed does not matter.

All I am saying is, at Something of Value and all the NPC materials we have gotten we have HUGE checklists of what is and what is not an infraction...hunts, interviews.... were spelled out as infractions.....I don't care what each chapter does and does not do. No one goes and calls a national organization regarding these things.

We were just eduated early on and we do not do those type events. My issue is an additude of a little is OK, then that may turn into a lot the next.

As I have said before, to each their own.

If I don't feel raped was I still Raped? Even if I consented? Even if after I said: "I wanted to do it and would do it again?" Even, if I didn't have to but chose to anway?

Anyone want to take a swipe at this? Yall can see where its going;)

My organization and I'm sure lots of yours specifically define hazing. I think many organizations take it to an extreme that in the long run can be unhealthy.

We should expect our members to fulfill certain requirements before being initiated. If not, how is it special to be Greek vs in Math Club or Young Republicans?

It seems with some organizations anti-hazing policies that you can't ask your new members to do ANYTHING -- you can't require them to show up for meetings, can't ask them to complete tasks or whatever.

This is not hazing -- and it's not what gives the Greek Community a bad name. Line ups, paddling, SOME scavenger hunts, anything to that effect is something that needs to be questioned. But requiring new members to know the Greek Alphabet? Requiring them to meet your older members? Requiring them to be familiar with your history and with the history of the Greek movement in general?

I don't think that's hazing in the least and as far as I know, neither does my HQ.

It's a fine line you have to walk between hazing and having a successful and useful curriculum for your new members -- it's a line I think they should give us a bit more leeway on.

Hazing
 

Hay Beggar,
I just found this thread, so sorry if I am joining this late in the game. Seems to me that Hazing doesn't make a lot of sense in that I sure don't want to beat hell out of a pledge one day and call him Brother the next. On the other hand, if I am going to call him Brother, and mean it, then he has to earn that privelege as we all did. My experience was that I never felt degraded, rather I felt challenged. Afterwards, I felt proud that I had met the challenge. Nothing happened to me that I would be ashamed to tell anyone, although I consider the actual events as family business. I think the key thing here is to understand that the issue is too sensitive and polarized to approach on the basis of reasonable discussion. Those who are opposed to anything that might challenge an aspirant will call whatever task that might be set "Hazing". Those who see pledge training as an opportunity to have the aspirant rise to the challenge and grow in strength and dedication to the bonds of brotherhood will defend "sweating pledges" even in questionable situations. There are no easy answers when the issue is skewed by highly charged emotions. I suppose the answer is to obey the law, set pledge tasks that are well thought through, and do the best you can to pass on to the new guys the values that mean the most to you. I think it is essential that pledges must be challenged and must find the strength to meet the challenge by pulling together as a group and by reaching down into their very character individually. I also think that active brothers have an absolute responsibility to be brothers and see that all that happens is fair and by the rules.
These pledges are to be my brothers forever. They must be worthy. But the other side of the coin is that to be their brother I must be worthy as well.

dekeguy, welcome aboard the GCer Train!

Kuddos to you for the well written reply on this thread!:D

Dekeguy,

Thanks for joining the discussion. I'm glad to finally get a decent perspective on the topic I asked to be discussed. I also agree with everything you wrote. I pledged my fraternity in 1992 and naturally I am an alumnus now. I know what I went through. It was in no way easy and I can pretty much confirm that it would be considered hazing by just about everyone that reads these threads. However, I am also not ashamed to tell anyone what I had to do. I do not seek out anyone to tell about my pledge season because, like you said, "it's family business." But, now that I'm an alumni, when I have a pledge ask me what he will go through, I give a pretty good idea of what will be asked of him. I tell him that it will not be easy and it will definitely be a challenge. I also tell him that if he feels he is being degraded or physically or mentally abused by an active during pledge season, to let someone in the fraternity know. I have been an alumnus since 1996 and I am yet to have a pledge complain of being degraded or harmed. After pledge season is over, they all say it was tough but worth it.

I also completely agree with the comment that you made at the very beginning of your reply. No matter what you do during pledge season as an active, you still have to look that guy in the eye after it is over and call him your brother. You are also asking that guy to have the same respect for you and have him consider you his brother. I think that this is what shows all of us where the line is.

Well, although I see the points in everyone's views, the thing is a little is not OK. Not when you can lose your chapter.

I know it must be hard going through things that new guys wouldn't have to, but new-new members programs are desgined to produce the same brotherhood/sisterhood that was traditionally a result of hazing type activites.

Fraternities and Sororities can get away with different things...maybe not at all schools, but definitly mine. NPC groups are not allowed to do anything as the NPC guidelines spell out, but the men's groups were often taken on road trips, living together-sitting outside classrooms waiting for their pledge brothers(b/c they had to sleep/eat/go to class togther), wear the same outfits......all while in front of God and everyone. And that goes for many team sports as well.

Although some of the "fun" activies are no longer allowed, it is for the best and it forces us to be more creative while getting away from the norm that everyone expects.

My school has been lucky, not too much has been caught or been of national attention, but things can change and it may not be until someone gets hurt-which is truly unfortunate.

These pledges are to be my brothers forever. They must be worthy. But the other side of the coin is that to be their brother I must be worthy as well.

Dekeguy - I don't think I've ever heard it expressed this well! If only every member across the country took this to heart, we wouldn't have the problems systemic today - very well said - thanks - I will be using it to tell our Associate Members and brothers the same at the colony I work with.

Re: Hazing
 

Well put, dekeguy, I couldn't have said it better myself!:)

wow, i know i'm just adding what many of us have said already - there is no such thing as "good" hazing. those interviews you've all been talking about? we do those in our new member education. we're all there, new and initiated sisters, and we all take turns talking about ourselves, why we're there, our favorite things... stuff like that. it's not mandatory or anything, it's just a fun part of all the learning we do. we also do little activities like that at rush parties so we can learn if we are right for the girl and if she's right for us.

and by the way, ASA nationals does not condone hazing of any kind. i know we're not alone in that either. i was NOT hazed, i never felt pushed into anything, and i would NEVER try to push a new or old sister into something she didn't want to do.

there is an archaic custom that a lot of our alumnae use at formals and such, called "scrolling." basically if the older sister, the one with the lower "scroll number," tells you to do something, you are supposed to do it... that is still hazing, and it's wrong. we discussed it once and decided we didn't want any part of it, and from my class on, we don't do anything they "scroll" us to do - what are they going to do? we're active, they aren't... so honestly, there's no point in participating in something so silly.

hope i didn't upset anyone,

heather

Have I missed something crucial here? It seems to me that there are two main trends of thought going on in this discussion. One view is that a candidate for the privelege of lifelong brotherhood with those with which the candidate wishes to bond should have those priveleges conferred with little or no effort on that candidate's part via a path which is carefully constructed to offer no obsticles, no challenges, and no opportunities for the neophyte to find the strength of character to excel and merit the priveleges he desires. The other seems to fall in line with the position I feel most appropriate. That position accepts the simple truth that hazing is out of place but demands that a pledge meet the challenges placed before him and his pledge class so that his character can be tested and his dedication and worthyness proven. I do not suggest attempting to get round the law or find loopholes in the rules of fair play. I suggest that pledgeship is the golden opportunity for a candidate to see for himself if he really wants what he is attempting and how he can determine for himself whether he can rise to a goal that is not given easily. The so called "me generation" has been rightly criticised for wanting it all, wanting it now, and wanting it easy. I'd like to know that my brothers are made of better stuff. I'd also like to feel that they can be proud of me as well. I think pledgeship should be tough and demanding. I also believe that it must be well thought out and designed to forge the steel of true accomplishment and true brotherhood. No silly games, no room for some borderline sadistic bull, but real challenges building real brothers. Would you really want to be part of an outfit that gave you a pledge of lifelong brotherhood, true friendship, and everything that goes into the making of these just for the asking? If you go out for a team don't you expect to earn your place on that team and work for the privelege?
All of this seems so simple and so crucial to the whole concept of being Greek that I am a bit mystified that it seems so difficult to understand. In sum, no hazing but serious opportunities to excell and meet the challenges of excellence. No, I don't think that this is an outmoded or naive point of view.

Alcohol/Hazing WILL kill all GLO's!
 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by SAEactive
From "The Record of Sigma Alpha Epsilon" (Winter 2002, pg. 60)

Fraternity / Insurance Cost per member:

Beta Theta Pi / $75
Kappa Sigma / $60
Phi Delta Theta / $115
Sigma Alpha Epsilon / $124
Sigma Chi / $80
Sigma Phi Epsilon / $74

(The above information gathered from the Fraternity Executives Association)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Thanks for the info! Let me help others who read my original post. I am the Finance Comissioner for the fraternity, not a chapter of the fraternity. So the purpose of the request was to examine the rising costs of our poor behavior together. The above numbers look to be a little more recent than the last FEA report I had. But that data tends to trail the "real time" numbers significantly.

Our overall costs will increase dramatically this year. Kappa Sigma decided about 2 years ago to "Tier" our chapters based on violations. So, like your car insurance, if you've got the fraternal equivalent of speeding tickets or wrecks, your chapter pays more. But our chapters on Tier 1 (no violations, etc) will still pay more in the future.

I also know that many orgs are in the market for a renewal/new policy as I write this. I also know that the last two years have been particularly high claim/award years for greeks, and Kappa Sigma too. We've all seen the articles.

The immature decsions that are being made by each of us, affects the future of the system. I predict that if claims continue at their current level, and if settlements and awards continue to increase at their current rate, that NONE of us will be able to afford insuance in 8 to 10 years.

For those who self insure (everyone does to a degree) it won't take more than 10 average major claims to wipe out the richest reserve currently held.

This is the single largest threat to our existence, and it all boils down to two things: alcohol and hazing. Period. Our insurance should be for accidents. Accidents raise premiums, but accidents don't generate NEAR the number and size of jury awards.

So, you hazing proponents - just keep on killing us all.

Brad

You know Brad, I read your post and was curious how sororities measured up to that insurance yardstick. Even at our largest chapters with large houses, women probably don't pay more than $40 a year for insurance. And at the smaller, unhoused chapters, it's between $15-30. Now mind you, all of this is based upon previous violations, the atmosphere of campus, the "risk" involved.

With more sorority incidents coming out lately, I can imagine sorority women will soon be experiencing these increases as well, but thankfully, NPC has helped us keep insurance costs down by removing alcohol from our housing.

You're exactly right though...the hazing proponents will keep your insurance costs through the roof. And it's a shame for those fraternities who really do have positive new member programs.

Shadowkat,

I don't know any specific numbers, but sorority liability insurance is MUCH lower. The reason cited for that by the underwriters is that sorority houses are dry.

According to "Fraternal Risk Management Times" over 90% of ALL fraternity claims are alcohol related.

It's not that hard to figure out, is it?

The 99' average for those sorotities reporting to FEA was $21 per year, compared to the men's avg of $89.

Over the years, we have been willing partners to the masterful shift of liability to our houses. We can point fingers all over the place - including in the mirror! But it will be interesting to watch over the next few years, as sorority chapters continue to ignore the Alcohol-Free Social Function policies of their organization's. When the plaintiff's attorney's get a hold of the creative circumvention of those policies, I have no doubt that the sororities will find themselves party to many more suits than in the past.

But the dollars aren't the point! It infuriates me that my undergraduate brothers are willing to gamble their individual and collective futures on some inane need to help the women cheat the system, pack the house with a bunch of people who could care less about it sober, then participate in the providing of alcohol to anyone who can stumble to the bar....all in the hopes of satisfying their libidos. :mad:

Alcohol is not the culprit! Forbidding it from the house doesn't work - ask Farmhouse, they did it in 74'. Their loss history is not significantly better than anyone else's of similar size. They pay roughly $75 per man, which isn't much lower than the average.

Mix in that the VAST majority of hazing injuries and death result from forced consumption of alcohol, and it's enough to make me check myself into the funny farm.

The only answer I can come up with is vigilance! Absolute vigilance against hazing and alcohol violations. Pull every pin of every member that is convicted of violating the policies and do our best to rebuild the chapters.

And I'm spent............

Brad

Brad,

I could not agree with you more. I have never been a supporter of "dry" housing, but I would argue that at least the sororities don't have the big parties, etc. I think everyone who wasn't born last night knows that there is alcohol in sorority houses.

What I didn't point out in my post above is that a fairly substantial part of the damage resulting in the 90% alcohol related plus claims is caused by visitors to the house -- including women invited to parties.

Frankly, I'm getting so fed up with chapter closings due to alcohol and hazing that I am wondering seriously whether it makes any sense to keep volunteering. I don't really want to be an officer if the Fraternity ever folds -- God forbid. I'm not ready to pull the plug yet, but the more I read Fraternal News and other publications -- and then read some of the posts from hazing proponents on this forum, it just makes me sick.

Our brothers (and sisters) need to wake up and help assure the future of our organizations and look beyond the next party.

While I also agree that some hazing definitions are absolutely ridiculous -- it simply doesn't matter. The law is the law. The rules are the rules. That's the way it is.

Sorry for he vent.

Thanks again for the statistics.