Hey, lay the hell off. I'm not trying to fit my interests or to discount anyone. I'm a journalist covering this shit (ergo, I have no political opinions) and I'm just trying to point out that people automatically assuming he's a Tea Party member (or affiliated with anything) is stupid.

"I'd just like to say that when you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths, about tearing down the government, the anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country is getting to be outrageous." -Sheriff Clarence Dupnik

In trying to ascribe a political party to this individual, we only exacerbate the anger. Watching the videos this guy made, it's pretty clear that he's not stable. When John Hinckley, Jr. shot President Reagan, it was because he was obsessed with Jodi Foster, which made NO sense at all. We can't even begin to understand someone's motivation when they would do something like this.

No, you didn't just make that point. If you did a little reading on the internet, you'd see all the claims that he must be a liberal because the Communist Manifesto was his "favorite book", though it's just listed as one of his favorites. It's a thinly veiled dig at Democrats laying the blame on their door. Just stop it. If you are a "journalist covering this shit" do more research before you post shit like that.

Representative Gabrielle Gifford's aides is an AOII.
 

Pam Simon, aid to Representative Gabrielle Gifford's aide is an AOII, University of Washington, 1960's. Not sure exact dates.
She is hospitalized right now.

My thoughts go out to all the victims. Words, not weaponry, are the answer.

I have been fucking reporting and researching on this all day, so lay off with the patronizing bullshit. My comment was in direct response to someone mentioning upthread that many Facebook threads have referenced Sarah Palin/the Tea Party. I noted that someone listing the Communist Manifesto as an inspiration is unlikely to be a member of the Tea Party. That's all. It's absolutely fucking crazy for anyone to attempt to ascribe the shooter's motives to a political party.

Yeah, and you completely left out the multiple other things that make his ideology similar to the Tea Party. Just because he isn't a card carrying member doesn't mean that the rhetoric of the past two years hasn't had an effect on him. It's not patronizing to point out that you are being insulting. Your comment could have gone without being said.

Thank you for this information. I'll spread the word.

His favorite is all over the place, from Communist Manifesto to Mein Kamp. He also enjoy We The Living. Karl Marx, Adolf Hitler and Aynd Rand are his favorite authors all opposite of each others.

Dude, you're misinterpreting me. I'm trying to point out that it's reductive to take one of his interests and turn it into him being a Tea Party member -- and that it's equally reductive to take the Communist Manifesto thing and turn it into him being a liberal. I 100% agree with you that the rhetoric and vitriol of the past several years almost certainly had an effect on a clearly freaking crazy individual.

I'm aware. I'm trying to point out that you can pull out any one silly detail ascribe his motives to it. (And clearly I'm not doing a very good job of it, but we'll blame it on a long, hard day.)

Truce.

Truce. I'm sorry about your congresswoman. I met her several times covering the 2006 freshmen and she's fantastic.

I think AZ-Alpha Xi and AzTheta are really shaken up. Maria actually knew John Roll. I'm in Phoenix, so she isn't my Congresswoman; she represents southern AZ. I have Congressman Quayle:rolleyes:...yep VP Quayle's son! She's just one of the few female reps we have in our state and country, and she seems like a wonderful woman.

Checking in from Tucson, where the city is reeling from this morning's events. This is still a very small town in many regards, despite achieving a population of over a million in the metropolitan area. There are few people in town who've not been touched in some way by the violent, senseless shootings. Federal Court Chief Judge John Roll, a highly respected attorney and justice here, went to law school with my former husband; he and his wife sat near us at U of A basketball games. He was a devout Catholic who was on his way home from mass when he stopped in to say hello to Rep. Giffords. He was, simply, in the wrong place at the wrong time. I am heartbroken for his wife Maureen, their children, and grandchildren. Tucson has lost a truly great citizen today.

Yes, Dee, you are right on the mark in your assessment of the suspect. Sheriff Dupnik has been in law enforcement in Tucson for approximately 50 years (he will be 75 years old quite soon). He was, as was Mayor Walkup and almost every other official who spoke today (other than the highly trained chief of trauma surgery), close to or in tears much of the time while addressing the media. We are listening to people who've known each other and worked together for many, many years. Their hearts are broken as well.

The suspect in custody is, from many accounts, suffering from serious mental issues. To ascribe political motives to such a wildly unstable mind at this time seems counter-productive. Thank you, moe.ron, for pointing out how erratic the suspect's writings are.

It was just another beautiful Saturday morning in the Sonoran desert, people were going grocery shopping at the Safeway, Gabby Giffords was hosting yet another open forum for her constituents...and what else is there to say? The suffering that is happening in so many homes and hearts this evening overwhelms me. I pray for deep peace, acceptance, and compassion.

Hold your loved ones just a little closer in your hearts.

In many ways, this makes me more sad than anything else. Poor little girl. My heart goes out to her parents who must be crushed.

They've just reported that Rep. Giffords has woken up and is speaking. She has recognized her husband. She is very, very fortunate (if you can say that after having been shot in the head in the first place.)

Angela, this is great news. I expect there will be many ups and downs for her (I'm thinking about the brain swelling, etc.). UMC has a great SLP who happens to be an AXO so if Rep. Giffords needs speech therapy, she'll be getting it from the best!

Keeping everyone in prayer. Any news on your AOII sister or any of the other victims?

Everything I've found on line says that Pam Simon is doing well. UMC reports five people in critical condition. There are just so many victims, I don't know how to check for them all.

As for Rep. Giffords, I suspect she has a very long road ahead of her. From all my experience with head injuries (penetrating and blunt) during my two years of General Surgery at LSU, early status like this is great, but swelling can change things in an instant. The whole goal over the next 48-72 hours will be to prevent secondary injury from swelling. It's so hard to know how much damage will ultimately be there. My mentor from Radiology residency did her surgery internship at UMC and says that the neurosurgeons and trauma surgeons are excellent, so I'm sure she is getting top notch care.

"His motivation was not immediately known, but Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik described him as mentally unstable and possibly acting with an accomplice."

I get so tired of the "mentally ill, or pleading insanity" excuse. In this case he might be mentally unstable and I'm sorry, maybe I'm a bit brash, but insane or not I believe they are fully aware of what they are doing and it's scary because they believe its acceptable. I still will never understand why people believe that violence or death will change anything. It solves nothing and the government is going to continue to carry on with their policies, ideology and so forth. I find it extremely sad that anyone would ever have to experience such tragedy. No one deserves that.

Very few people succeed with an insanity defense. Mental illness is not the same as legal insanity either. It is actually possible to be mentally ill and legally sane. They are not the same concept. I'm not a psychiatrist, but many of his rants are delusional with anti-government fixations. This is very suspicious for paranoid schizophrenia. Schizophrenics very rarely are violent, but like normal people, they can be.

You are (understandably) applying your own perspective (and experience) to something that very few people outside of psychiatry truly understand - mental illness, most especially thought disorders. Would that it was that simple, or worked that way. But it is not.

You cannot assume that your reality/belief system/value system is, in any way/shape/form, anything like that of a person who exhibits the type of delusional and disordered thinking that the suspect has exhibited. Nowhere in any of his rants or writings did the suspect indicate that his shooting of government officials would change anything whatsoever. His thoughts are largely incoherent. Officials from the local community college have come forward with information regarding the bizarre behaviors the suspect exhibited which resulted in his expulsion from the community college.

Having evaluated people who suffer from a variety of emotional disturbances and mental illnesses, I will say that their motives are seldom if ever understandable through the filters that most of us use and are comfortable with. Thought disorders are baffling, and paranoia is not something that can be reasoned with. Applying the standard of "fully aware of what one is doing" is challenging, even for the experts.

I'm glad few people get away with it because I feel that people tend to use it as an easy way out. There's an extremely fine line between any mental disorder. Youre absolutely correct AZTheta, I'm no psychologist, nor am I knowledgeable on these topics. I can only imagine the intricate, complex, and difficult concept to understand. I did make a general statement and I dont think I meant him in particular thinking that his killlings would change anything. It's a tricky way to say it because what is true for one person isn't true for another and its hard not to make generalized statements that apply to this man because we don't know him or the way his mind works. I think what I was getting at is some think that "making an example of someone" will make a change. I cannot apply my belief system to anyone elses because we all are wired differently, I personally feel people like him are can be so easily influenced but influenced in all the wrong ways. It bothers me because my brother is a political science major in his senior year and I cant even begin to describe how he has changed. He has become so critical and judgemental, almost hateful and I really feel like he has been influenced by these professors and these polysci classes.

I know what you mean, but then again, the cases where people claim mental illness also get a lot of media attention. Sorry about your brother. Politics can be very polarizing. It often is hard for people to put those beliefs away at the end of a discussion and just have normal conversations. It happens to the best of us when we believe passionately about something. I think today is a really good reason for all of us to rethink how we frame our political discourse...everyone of us.

Chicago88, we do not know what influenced the suspect; we truly do not. That was the point I was trying to make. Thought disorders are, for the neurotypical/sane mind, very difficult to understand. That's why we are "afraid" of "crazy" people. And more and more information is coming to light that points in the direction that AOIIAngel highlighted earlier (at least I think you did, the paranoia/delusional thinking direction, if I'm wrong I'll edit this).

Cannot make sense out of the senseless.

I understand AzTheta, I'm not saying we know what influenced him. I'm sure it's something we will never know or understand much less want to know or understand. I understand what youre saying. The point I was trying to make was that I think that people can be influenced, regardless of what it is, who it is, etc especially when it comes to political matters/ideologies/theories, new and old.

AOII- I completely agree. The politics conversation ranks up there with the religion conversation with me. If we don't try to force our opinions on someone then thats fine. I believe that argument is one that will never be one due to the fact that we all have different views on what is "right and wrong" in a political sense. I agree to disagree when it comes to these things.

Chicago88, you are not alone in your thinking. Everywhere I turn this morning I'm reading and hearing "stop the vitriol! we are sick of it." Many share your sentiments, that the horrible inflammatory language and verbal attacks affect everyone and that this possibly played a part in yesterday's events. Perhaps this horrific event will, in a way, serve a purpose. I don't hold out much hope, but then, I'm grieving and not thinking rationally. The sun is shining, it's a perfect day, and my heart is heavy.

AOII Pam Simon Update...
 

From what I am hearing, Pam Simon, AOII is not critically injured.
Thank goodness.
My prayers go out to all the victims and those there.
Any time a child is lost, a part of our future is lost.

Also, they have to be considered to have a total break from reality during the entire time they plan and carry out the attacks. Something nearly impossible to prove if planning actually took place. NGRI (Not Guilty for Reasons of Insanity) is also different from being unfit to stand trial. NGRI carries serious consequences with it when serious offenses are involved. Said person will be put in a locked down psych facility for 10-20 years, at least, and will have mandated treatment following release until such time as they're no longer dangerous. I've worked with someone who killed his father because he thought his father was trying to kill him. He was a schizophrenic in a psychotic break. He never broke again since, and his medication has all of his symptoms under control. He is still monitored but you'd never know about his past and he has had to deal with the grief and loss and so has his family. It's not a Get Out Of Jail Free card.

Unfit to stand trial usually means they get treated until they ARE fit and then are required to stand trial as anyone else. They can still try an NGRI affirmative defense.

Indeed, and frequently an individual who tries to falsely claim NGRI has shown multiple examples of understanding the consequences of their actions throughout the time they were considering or planning the crime. To claim that only when they had the crime did they suffer a break from reality doesn't sell well. There are probably more people who are in prison who were not responsible for their crimes than people who have "gotten off" improperly.
This is kind of like how one woman who lies about rape makes 2000 women not get believed. One person gets attention for claiming NGRI and then people think it's all bullshit. It's not an easy out, but public perception makes it that way.
While mental disorders can have fine lines, the line that lets you get away with murder, while it can be blurry it is a very THICK line.

Quoting this whole thing:

With regards to all the political rhetoric, I feel like this said it best:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/201...-rhetoric.html

Intern helped in saving Congresswoman's life...
 

Daniel Hernandez, intern, stays by Gabrielle Giffords' side
UA student pulls her into lap, holds head to stop bleeding

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...#ixzz1AZRdD0pC

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...-shooting.html

^^ points up

There's actually a very interesting connection between this and attempts to ascribe political "motive" (or persuasion, perhaps more specifically) to the attacker - from a jury science standpoint, one of the main difficulties of an insanity defense is overcoming the Fundamental Attribution Error, the desire to believe actions reflect a person's character or internal characteristics by ignoring temporal or external factors.

The FAE is also used (and often abused) in the political arena as well, and we naturally rely on it in particularly difficult times or with regard to acts we really can't comprehend or understand. It's one of the easiest root causes of jumping to a conclusion (and a very natural, unavoidable one at that).

I truly hope Giffords makes it, as well as all the mourning families see that justice is and will be served. This may be a silly question but does Arizona utilize the death penalty? I know here in Texas the death penalty is something that isn't a topic that is tip toed around.

It wouldn't matter, this is a federal offense. He's being charged by the federal government. He allegedly killed a Federal judge and attempted to assassinate a Congresswoman. This isn't the jurisdiction of the Arizona legal system.

This is one of those times where I don't feel the need to say allegedly...

I know what you mean...I keep having to go back and add it because I don't naturally put it. He was caught red handed.