GLO CLOSINGS
 

Any time I hear that another GLO closes I get a warm fuzzy feeling inside.;)

V, is that you again? Barbara, barbara, barbara, when will you ever learn?! What's up with the sig lambs???


laff

Well, said, Shadokat!

A greek system is only as strong as it's smallest chapter.

wait 'til the weak get strong...
 

I hope some of you idealists who think the bottom will rise to
the top -- do not ever try to leave the ivied walls for business, as
you will starve. Get real with the world...
I do not feel the Greeks are a rehab center. If the cheapest were the best we'd all be driving Yugos.
If elitism does not exist, why do so many try to get into Yale?
While it is indeed noble to try to bring the weak ones up--it is
often due to abulia, to apathy, to laziness that they remain at the
bottom--year after year.
Sometimes a total wipeout of a chapter will result in a new , healthy start.
Do you naively think that other wimps who are GDI s will join a
wimpy GLO? The first to go from a wimpy outfit which has gone
on a rise....are the wimps, who are replaced by less wimpy folk
Go ahead, bury your head in the sand, feel sorry for the cellar dwellers, but when your system dies, remember that you sat
by and watched!

Hey, I can see both sides here, and I think it's a little rude to call people naive idealists who will never succeed in business just because they disagree with you.

It's true - folks in general don't want to join a chapter that isn't successful. Many people will stay independent if they can't get into a good organization. These folks shouldn't be cut out of Greek life - another org may be the answer.

I don't think "dweebiness" is a bar to success, at least for guys. A mid-sized fraternity on my campus is by its own admission full of geeks. Programmers, cloak-wearers, RPGers ... and they are dong well and getting their numbers. They just have their own niche. It's no different than being "the football fraternity."

But groups on the bottom CAN rise. I've seen it. Another group that was definitely on the bottom on my campus for years (12 members total in a good year) has managed to bring their numbers up to 21 over the past year and is changing their reputation.

However, I'm glad that in the meantime other fraternities were allowed to come on campus. In the last 8 years, one chapter was closed (behavior, not numbers), and two have been successfully established. Another has come back from some serious problems that led to the loss of their house.

Yeah, our sorority system hasn't grown. And maybe Panhellenic should have allowed the national that wanted to colonize to do so, instead of protecting the two chapters below ceiling. But some gals tried to found a local, and it was a dismal failure, because they couldn't drum up the interest - not because Panhel or the other Greeks or the school said no.

I just want to clarify what has been written here and on some other threads. The smaller chapters, which are perceived as weak, cannot get new members. Independents who want to pledge, but don't get a bid from a strong aka large chapter would rather remain Independents than pledge a weak aka small org. Some campuses and GLOs have expanded too quickly. Some campuses have waited for all existing GLOs to reach total to add a new org. Unfortunately, people don't want this small GLO because it is perceived as weak. During this time the weakest group drags down the rest of the greek system. If the independents who didn't get a bid and wanted one would all join the same small chapter, it would grow larger aka stronger as would greeklife on that campus.

Am I reading this correctly? Could someone please clarify if I am missing something? Thank you in advance.

naive idealists
 

While we certainly like to hear all points of view, with age one
becomes impatient, and the naive idealists have a place for
sure in the "community of scholars." And we can all point out
various chapters which've pulled themselves up...but to 21? Now come on, any chapter under 40 is a drag on the others, and the risk management fees are killing you a helleva lot more
than a 100 member chapter. These risk management fees
came about 'cause we've misbehaved. Pure and simple. And
we are not, still not, getting the leaders. When was the last time you saw a campus mostly run by Greeks? Way back when
we had good grades and leaders...we did run the place...but we
had 25% or more of the campus in our corner, too. And we did
not have the idiot Greek Advisors..mostly non-Greeks, as a part of the bureaucratic layer in the collegiate administration, either.
We alums allowed that to happen; it is mostly our fault there...
Naw, we got a lot of work to do . The bellyaching and the infighting must stop. If you do not have an alumni board and a
chapter advisor, and if you are not carrying your share...you need to be gone. Again, we are not a rehab center and we do
more, or should, than barf on the SAE lion or pee on the Pike
porch. It may be time for the naive idealists to form their own local..cheap dues and all. I like my new BMW, don't you? The Fraternity is for Life....really....

cream is right
 

You make an excellent point, Deefer, in that on some campuses there have been mergers (or absoptions) which'll
result in the rise of both...and some of the objections disappear as it is a new group This especially happens when the bottom
group is a chapter of a prominent fraternity elsewhere.
And I have seen the whole floor of a dorm go out en masse to
rescue a bottom chapter--sometimes with great results.
These are good ideas, heroic measures, and indeed learning
experiences. But where does it happen, when, and how often?
However, it is not at all naive to look upon this as a solution.
And I have seen campuses where fraternity or sorority members removed their badges, went over to to the weaker house to help rush. Sometimes with good results, but often just avoiding the inevitable, as the weak chapter cannot stand the success, or in sarcastic t erms "despite the heroic efforts
of (insert names), the project failed."
It is healthy to have a site like this, and just because some disagreements occur, the so -called "naive idealists" will not
go away. A little introspection might help.

Re: --another point
 

Q for Frater Conard


What did Wilson Heller say about "outfits" with over 100 inactive chapters?

If there is so much room for expansion then why so many inactive chapters?

Instead of trying to expand maybe you should spend a little more time improving your existing chapters.

good point
 

First, though, there were no fraternities with a hundred dead chapters during Heller's time.
Second, it is a sore spot with me and a lot of TKEs that we
chartered in places, often not joined by others, and should not
have done so in the first place. TKE has pioneered many campuses. The street car schools have turned out to be a far
cry from the ivied walls...and the student body is considerably
different today. Perhaps we should confer degrees at birth.
Third, many alumni, including myself, dropped out of active volunteerism when the headquarters focused on writing memos, giving speeches, and playing big shot. This is, indeed,
a hole we are trying to dig ourselves out of...and it is embarrassing to discuss--but nonetheless, even the largest
outfit can foul their mess kit. But we can own up to it and can do
what we can to improve. And it is working.
I am not happy with that twenty year period either. But I might
point out that this has turned around, and the new chapters are
mostly reactivat ions....and it has not hurt us ...the interest groups and colonies have not abated, either
I am not blind to our weaknesses, either, and I repeat, the
Fraternity is for Life.

There are lots of campuses where chapters aren't at 100. At the campus I was referring to, 40 is a little higher than average. 21 is still small, but remember, this was only one year's improvement. Trying to achieve 100 would be insane. The biggest chapter on campus (at a lot less than 100) got that way by bidding everyone - they are full of average guys and achieve nothing on campus. To my mind, the most successful chapters at my school are those that are in second or third place with numbers, but who win Greek Week, win grades, get the campus leaders, etc.

I don't see why a small chapter "drags the rest down" as long as expansion is still occuring. Can someone explain that to me?

I think that is is the same theory as a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. The campus is only as strong as its weakest chapter.

Re: cream is right
 

Thank you Mr. Conrad. When I was in college, my chapter was having a hard time recruiting new members as I had recounted in another thread. We had fewer than 50 sisters with a total of 85. Fortunately, a large number of women in one dorm joined. The following semester we initiated a new local sorority of over 20. That was exactly what we needed. It definitely can be done with a lot of hard work.

To play the cynical contrarian here ... I understand that having weak chapters hurts the campus *if* there are potential members on campus who are barred from joining an organization because they can't get into the good ones and new ones can't come on campus. But assuming that everyone who wants to go Greek and is eligible goes, what's the problem with having a "weak link"? (There will always be students who are vehemently anti-Greek, or who are pro-Greek and flunking out of school.)

The way I see it, Greeks LIKE having a weak chapter or two on campus. They can always compare themselves favorably to somebody. They'll never take last in Greek Week, because Tiny Tau can barely field enough men to compete.

And the administration likes Tiny Tau. Tiny doesn't have a house, so they don't throw parties and get in trouble. Tiny never is on social probation. The girls don't think Tiny is full of pigs, because they never think about them at all.

I think if one chapter isn't the weakest link, folks will make one. So every chapter except two are at 100. One is at 99 and Tiny Tau is at 20. Great, Tiny closes, and the school adds Mu Mega Mu. MMM only has 75 pledges, but they get some slack because they're a colony. Everyone starts thinking of Nu 99 as being on the brink - gee, they're smaller, oh no! Or if they're not welcoming to new GLOs, it's MMM that gets slammed. They'll never succeed, blah blah blah.

There will ALWAYS be a weak chapter because we like it that way!

Fuzzie!! You are so right!

There will always be the weakest chapter on campus, as they're the one on which all of the other chapters can base their success. It's unfortunate, but it's true.

I don't naively think we can save every chapter that flounders, but if I can help those who struggle become better, I'm going to do it, and I'm going to advocate for them. Expansion should happen because your system cannot accommodate the amount of PNMs seeking to affiliate. If you have fraternities or sororities with less than total, then expansion isn't necessary. I know on one campus I work with, they had a chapter of a national sorority that was just HIDEOUS. And at formal recruitment, they got like 3 girls when quota was 25. Some girls went through informal recruitment the next semester and said, "you know what? We can just take over XYZ and make it cool!" So they joined that national sorority, and within 2 years they were TOP on campus. Are those stories the norm? No, but can that stuff work? Absolutely!!!

On a completely different note, Erik, consider running for your fraternity's international council if the powers that be aren't doing what you and so many others think is right for the fraternity. You claim to have enough experience, and you can't make the changes you want by not being a part of the fraternity. If your group of unhappy brothers is large enough, your voice will be heard, and I don't think that's naive...

thank you
 

Shado--thank you for your suggestions. Changes have been made within our organization and the ruling council is far more
talented than me. I have had numerous chances to run for our
grand council and have been unwilling to devote the time needed, fully well thinking there were others aptly suited.
My point, aimed at sororities only...why does your outfit continue
to allow chapters of 150 to 250 to exist and barring new ones to
come on? OR why do campi have the stupid quota system which rarely helps the weak and many go thru rush...only to
remain barbarian (non-Greek) 'cause they did not get a bid from
Kappa, Pi Phi, Chi O, Theta or what hav e you?
Chi O had a pledge class of 95 recently at a nearby school The men's groups averaged under 50 in size, pledges and actitves on that same campus Then do the Sig Delts and
Mu Nu's combine so they can have a f unction with the Chi O pledge class. . .(names ficticious) Because of this imbalance,
many systems no longer have exchanges...once a pleasure!
When two THOUSAND girls go thru rush for twelve sororities there are bound to be some hurt, some pissed....but how many?
Sororities have been kept snooty on many campi due to alumni,
and to ignorant Greek advisers. The girls are often sequestered
in dorms, have a meeting room, cannot get into trouble like men
There is a considerable difference in the sexes and the types of
outfits...I will admit it baffles me. A great number of campuses
could accommodate more sororities, and a great number of the colleges deem females too incompetent to run a house. Ponder that while buring bras.
Back to the gist...why are sororities HUGE, getting bigger, and the male counterparts dwindling?

Fine , now what about the 50% of the time when groups are not near total, and there isn't a good Greek Advisor and more groups are still coming to campus?



I think sororities have had things a little easy when it comes to competition. On most campuses women, have a slight majority of the student population. At the same time the majority of GLOs are fraternities. Hyopothetical EXample : 10 sororities and 20 fraternities or 20 sororities and 35 fraternities. When the number of sororities on your campuses double, and your specific sororities suddenly have half as many members, half as much money, and a smaller homes. Will you all still be pro expansion?

madmax--

The sorority expansion process is defined by NPC, therefore, it's done in an organized and well-thought manner. Fraternities could do the same I would assume with the help of IFC or NIC. Sororities remain the way they are in terms of expansion because we examine the system and open up expansion in places where expansion is necessary. I'm not saying that fraternities don't do it properly, but why open a chapter on a campus that really has no need for another fraternity (the 20 sorority/35 fraternity campus for example). Seems to me that's a waste of money!

Erik--

In regards to large chapter sororities, it isn't everywhere. The size of the chapter is based on what the campus Panhellenic chooses for chapter total to be. If a campus says a sorority can have 150 women, then that's what they have to work for. Most national organizations base their standards on what the campus total is. As for the why....well, let's see. Let's take Indiana University for example. When they open up for expansion a few years ago, AOPi was chosen to colonize. AOPi has to put up like $5 million dollars to build a house so they can compete on the campus with the other chapters. Unfortunately, many sororities don't have or aren't willing to shell out $5 million dollars for a house, so they decide to not colonize at a school such as IU. It's a huge money and time investment, and one that some groups aren't willing to take. So, instead of having new sororities come in to make the campus total more reasonable, the Panhellenic raises the total to accommodate all of the women who decide to go through recruitment.

I'm sort of rambling here, and I hope it makes sense. On a side note, on the campus where I went to school, the fraternities and sororities remain fairly equal in size, so mixers and exchanges are still tons of fun :)

New Chapter
 

There are a few girls at my school that want to start a new chapter. They are entirely rude to the rest of greek life. We try to get to know them, but they are just so snobby, and are definitly not going anywhere. Greek Life at my school is dying, the school doesn't want to help us pay for things, and it shows. Now these new girls are coming out of nowhere trying to make their own local sorority. hahah good luck girls!

It is so hard to remember that in the midts of competing with eachother for the same rushees that the Greek Community is a Community and that to survive, we must support eachother :-)

I think Erik has a skewed view of what a lot of sororities are like. My chapter is small, about the size of a small fraternity at 35 girls.
We rely on quota a lot so we can get pledges. Since we are small, a lot of girls don't want to pick us during the rush process. When some of the larger chapters can;t extend bids to all the girls, we are able to give them a bid. If there was no quota, we would probably lose a lot of rushees, and the bigger chapters would jsut get bigger. Quota is a way of keep chapters the same size.
And as far as why sororities are bigger than fraternities: It's the way rush is done. If fraternities herded boys through their houses like sororities do, they'd be able to have 40-70 member pledge classes too. But, since college boys would NEVER go for that, it won't happen. Obviously this doesn't get a WHY sororities are that big or why the two types of groups are so different, but it can help to understand what might have to be jumped over to accomplish any changes. Also, it looks like the imbalance in numbers has got you a bit ruffled.

And it is true that the greek system is only as strong as the weakest link. Gotta support other chapters. That's the message.

True
 

35 is not small at all. I know fraternitys on my campus that have about 10-15 guys and they are doing just fine. It's not the # of women/men in a fraternity/sorority it's the quality of them. I would rather have 1 good level headed sister that knows her shit, than have 10 sisters that are just in it to be party animals and goof off. As long as you have the quality and true reasoning in becoming a sorority/fraternity you are going to succeed.

It seems money is in many of these threads! Of course it is with the risk managment that is place today! Even All of the Internationals HDQ are feeling the pinch!

To me a 100 person chapter is way to large! Why, he asked? Do you know all of the members?

We have @ 6500 people on campus and not but @ 6 % are Greeks! We have 5 Fraternitys and 3 Soroitys!

LXA, SX, PKA, STG, PSK, and SPE. AGD, ASA, SSS!

Come and gone, ADP, PR ( LOCAL ), KD. Small National and TKE!

Face it folks, because of the screw ups by some Internatioals that got kicked off and had charters taken it is tough out there!

I admire the TEKEs as they are trying to recolonize lost chapters as is LXA and going to new ones.

Yes I new Eric "CONARD" at PSU and he is the one who aimed me to LXA!

At the present we are the next smallest Fraternity on campus next to PSK. We are pushing for a bigger Associate class than ever before!

As Eric knows from having been at PSU it is a tuff Greek Campus.


But The way things are going, they are all becoming tuff greek schools, (Alfred U. NY) Dennison U Ohio that took all of the houses away!

It is time that the Greeks act like the adults that they are supposed to be!

We do more on and for Campuses than the Independents do and if not for Greeks, There aint no Homecoming or people in the stands of the Football games!

If LXA is not there I would not go back to the damn School!

I paid my dues while I was there and that is the only reason I go back!

It is a tuff call but why have chapters where you do not know all of your Brothers and Sisters!

Of course I do not know all of mine being # 1 and we are up to 599 initiataes. But I now one hell of a lot of them!

I would love to see a Strong Soroity or three to start a Chapter at The Piit!

How about New Fraternitys, Competition is good. S#@T or get off the pot!

I tell my guys, if you have someone who is not doing the job tell them to GTFO!

Get The F*&^ Out! We Need to survive!

LCA tries to help a few
 

This Spring at Shippensburg University the House Corpaoration of LCA made a conscious effort for the first time ever to work with the other groups in our neighborhood. TKE, DU, Pi Lam, DZ, Phi Sig Sig and a local sorority, Sigma Delta.

Working with the mennonite develpoer that built our houses we had a neighborhood greeks meeting to address finances, and safety and heloping out the poorer and more screwed up groups in the neighborhood.

And by god it seems to have helped out, we got lights on all the houses for free, and got some neighborhood policies down, had a neighborhood cleanup and made an email group.

Some of the orgs have started to help the others out with small things that they arent good at (we helped SD get letters for their house)

In fact, some groups that dont live in our private neighborhood are pissed they arent included. So all greeks arent being hlepd, just our neighbors, and Ive never seen the like before, but I think this fall it will help all 7 houses rush.

Lenoxxx

I wanted to say something along those lines too. I went to a small school -- 1200 students at the time, though they're aiming to add a few hundred to that over the next few years -- and GLO participation has been low for, oh, the past few decades. My chapter had 24 people after my class joined, and we crested at 33 in the time I was there. I think all the fraternities (there are five, in school-owned housing, though the rules on that are changing) were in the 25-40 range. There are three sororities (no housing, as a general matter), which had a wider and more variable range of numbers but none over about 40 or 45. One of them is now rebuilding from single digits, and is doing so rather effectively, too. The recruitment and daily living dynamic at that kind of school is very different from large schools with tens of thousands of students and tens of GLOs.

I can say that had the issue come up I would have been skeptical about having more than 40 or 50 members in my chapter. The chapter tends to be very close. Had there been more members, it would have been difficult to develop a house so founded on close personal relationships. I learned a lot more socially because of that.

So, I guess I have two points. 1) There is strength in smaller numbers just as in larger ones; the strengths are just different. Finding the right balance and choosing goals goals that fit your numbers is the trick. Get too small, and financial and organizational survival becomes difficult; but get too large, and people don't know each other as well, and there's a potential to miss out on a particularly rewarding aspect of Greek life. 2) Different schools result in different challenges and potentially different roles for Greek systems. Size is a big factor, but so are the ambient political and social atmosphere at a school and the institution's educational goals and vision. In the smaller private lib-arts schools, it's been crucial for us to identify the roles that we can play and to show that both to the student body and the administration, or we will find existence increasingly difficult. Those roles run the gamut from accomplishing philanthropic feats to helping individuals-- our members and those we encounter, grow as human beings. I'm not so informed about the challenges that face groups at larger schools, though I'm looking forward to learning more about that here.

I've rambled for more than long enough. Have a good one, all. I'm looking forward to chances to chat with all of you, but I've a bar exam to tend to for the next few days.

--

Phi Kappa Tau, Mu Chapter
init. '96

Re: True
 

Obviously Natalie, you have not worked with the Greeks on much of a scale. You cannot support a chapter, with a house,
paying risk management fees, with a dinky 35 member chapter.
Go local if you want to be in that "selective" mold.
Even back in the 50s we panicked when we got down to 50 in
the house, forced out-of-house members to move in or help in
the defraying of the losses.
If you know of chapters of 10-15 members "doing well" then you
must not have much of a system, and I will tell you t hat the Pikes, Tekes, Sig Eps, SAE's, Lambda Chis, Betas, et al., will certainly not be knocking on your door to join you...I guarantee it. Your concept of fraternity is about one hundred years behind.
Sorry, but as a board member I would close the house or do something to pull us out of this obsolete mind-set.
Tell me one big school with an average chapter s ize under 40.
Perhaps a street car college with no house, but they have but a
little to offer in contrast. Please furnish rebuttal on this....do.
If you do not feel that way, then go local, get rid of the house, do
something other than be a drag on the other chapters.
In other words, get real or get out.

Eric, I beg to differ...

Your plant size should reflect your chapter size... Generally over time, a successful chapter will maintain itself (or grow) around a certain #.

If your plant size is the right one for the chapter you'll do fine. A 30-35 man chapter can EASILY support a house large enough to support 10 or so men... On some campuses this is acceptable.

At my house, the largest fraternity on campus is only up around 80 members and is currently residing in what looks like a 2 story double wide trailer.

The standard is not the same from campus to campus. You have to look at each individual situation and even further, each individual chapter.

ktsnake--

Couldn't agree more. My chapter is a 45 woman chapter, and we maintain a house that 18 girls live in. We make all of our bills on time, have fundraisers for philanthropy, and have enough money to do all of the things we need to do. AND, we don't pay thousands of dollars in dues....last semester, dues were $145.

Re: Re: True
 

Actually at my school we aren't allowed to have "fraternity and sorority houses." We do however, have houses that have sorority and fraternity members, we just aren't allowed to call it a "house" So you can get rid of that idea

And the fraterntiy that I was talking about that has only about 10-15 members is TKE. They are one of the best organizations on campus, and a lot of other fraternities look up to them, for their succeeding. My organization has 41 members and we are doing just fine as well. It's quality, not quantity.

My chapter is national, why would we want to go back to being local? Please. We are doing just fine with everything we have to offer plus more. We worked our asses off to get to be national and nobody is going to take that away from us.

Thank you

Greatly said! :) Well done!

bump

Re: True
 

Natalie, with all due respect, you are either
1) new at this and/or
2) have not had the leadership experience or demands and/or
3) have not had to pay the bills and/or
4) have been to few if any province or national-level conferences
To maintain a 10-15 member chapter over any period of time is
to drain the organization, money-wise, as NONE can afford to
keep such a chapter on the rolls for very long. If quality has any
thing to do with it, you will not remain a 10-15 member outfit very
long as everyone on campus will want to join your group
You obviously mean well but do not have a clue what it takes to
run a chapter and carry your load. Go local.

Mr. Conard,

Aside from having a noticeable love for the word "obviously" in your rhetoric, you "obviously" have a very narrow view of what greek life and life in a national organization can be.

Now you can probably see why I don't like the rhetorical devices that you've been using, so let's abandon that approach to argument.

Let's step through your list above and see if we can take apart the argument in it, if indeed there be any. I mean you no personal ill, but I disagree strongly with your argument, so I am not going to be particularly gentle with it.

1) New at this. The only plausible purpose of this particular statement -- that I can imagine -- is to demean Natalie's credibility. You discard it far too readily.

2) Have not had the leadership experience or demands. I cannot follow the logic in this remark at all. As I said above, I'm from a campus where the GLOs, all of which are nationally affiliated, range in size from 14 to maybe 40, none more than 50, on a campus of about 1300 total. It is at least as demanding to lead a group of 14 as it is to lead a group of 40. There are more tasks to be accomplished by fewer people; more is demanded of each. A single slacker is more dangerous to the organization than she or he would be among larger numbers. A personal conflict by sheer mathematics involves a greater proportion of the members. Because of the nature of personal relationships and the burdens on the individuals, a personal conflict is likely to be more challenging as well. These challenges can be overcome, but do not have an illusory view of the kind of achievement that takes. The demands are higher, not lower. Those who achieve them accomplish and grow more, not less.

3) Have not had to pay the bills. You speak as though every chapter has the same kinds of bills. In fact, different chapters have very different kinds of financial obligations. Some live in school-owned housing. Some have no housing. They do not all attempt the same scale of programs. The insurance and maintenance burdens are likely to differ substantially depending on the organization's housing situation. Do not assume that all schools are alike in this respect, that all organizations are alike, or that only one kind of Greek life is (a) ideal or (b) deserving of participation in national organizations. If this is the point you want to make, you have a lot more to prove.

4) Have been to few if any province-level or national conferences. Mr. Conard, at conferences, does your organization send its small chapters the message that they are a drain on resources and not worth the fraternity's letters? From what I have heard, any organization that would give that kind of message is the exception, not the rule. All of the conference stories that I have heard, from members of numerous organizations, involve a great amount of cheering on and support for the smaller chapters. In the end, I think that this point amounts to another baseless attack on credibility.

The necessities of Greek life are not identical in every situation or on every campus, and it is not the case that only one size of chapter can offer members unique benefits. I can only imagine that at the school you attend or once attended, a chapter is not a worthwhile effort unless it has 50 members to support a mansion-- maybe the greek system and campus there simply don't 'work' that way. Maybe a large house is a sheer necessity for recruitment there. But that is simply not the case everywhere. I attended a small college for undergraduate and a large university for graduate school. My chapter's house is school-owned and has a capacity of twenty-three people. This is a higher capacity than the house it had before it went into school-owned housing around 1940. Historically, the sororities have had no housing whatsoever, though that is starting to change. Do you mean to imply that my chapter is not worth the effort? That the entire Greek system at my college is not worth the effort? That the organization that owns a house worth $1.2 million on the University of Colorado campus near where I now live for some reason should not have a fourteen-member chapter on the campus of my own alma mater? Is their sisterhood somehow weaker on the basis of a priori principles that you have not articulated? My hunch is that the small chapter's sisterhood is in some ways more dynamic and powerful. My chapter does not have the 60 members that it had in the 1950s; it has around 30. I would not say that it is weak.

If you wish to prove that a chapter with fewer than 50 members is worthless and ought not to be nationally affiliated, you have an argument to make that is far more challenging and demands much more cautious and complete an analysis than anything you have heretofore said. I've seen nothing yet that accounts for the variability between campuses and between chapters. I've seen nothing that provides any valid reason that a small chapter should not be nationally affiliated -- or in any event you have not laid every step of your argument out clearly. I have seen no explanation as to the benefits of Greek life that I supposedly missed out on by being a member of a chapter with 36 members at its largest point while I was there. I have not seen an explanation as to why what I did obtain from that experience was economically not worth the investment of time, energy, and money. (The latter investment was really not that bad at all, and I am not at all wealthy.)

What exactly are these resources that are supposedly being drained by the small chapters? How is it that are they so completely drained that they ought to be expelled -- or asked to resign -- from the ranks of those who strive to attain the ideals that their organizations espouse? Ought we really to reject our brothers and sisters who have small groups at a given school because they are small? I can't claim any knowledge about your organization; I believe that such an approach would run counter to the cardinal principles of my own.

My case is probably most difficult on large campuses where some organizations have 50, 100, or more members and large houses while others have fewer than 35 members and smaller houses or no housing. My campus was nothing like that, but I grew up in Madison, WI, and went to law school at the University of Minnesota. From what I've seen, diversity among chapters in terms of size assures that different kinds of Greek-letter chapters are available to those who might prefer different personal dynamics in their organization. I would not have wanted to join an organization with 100 members; 30 to 40 suits me just fine. Yes, on the big campuses, those smaller organizations are usually striving to grow to the size of the others, but they are not worthless in the interim.

A chapter on a large campus that has numerous large chapters might be small for numerous reasons. In some cases, the small size may be a symptom of poor management, shoddy personal relations within the chapter, and general failure to achieve. In that kind of case, yes, there is a problem with the small chapter. But the small size is not the problem, it is a symptom of other problems. On the other hand, small size might reflect a different personality that simply draws fewer people in recruitment, or of the lack of a house or other typical recruitment "draws." In that case, if the chapter is internally well-run, is not struggling to maintain its existence, and can offer its members the brother- and sisterhood that are at the core of fraternal life, then I just can't see what the problem is. If such a chapter is struggling to exist from year to year, then it needs to reexamine its approach to recruitment and perhaps redefine its identity a bit, but we should probably do that to some extent every year anyway.

In short, I argue again that what you are claiming are simple facts of life of fraternity life are not universal facts that apply to every Greek environment. If your argument depends on assumptions that facts about Greek life are universal, then be prepared to make a strong argument that those facts are universal -- an argument that does not merely state, "this fact is universal." There is in small Greek life at least as powerful a potential for the development of strong brother- and sisterhood as there is in large Greek life.

Alternatively, we can let this entire argument go. In my opinion, it should not have been bumped.

Greek life -- national Greek life -- exhibits itself in different ways on different chapters. Small size is not necessarily weakness, and it is definitely not worthlessness.

You put your real name on your posts; it doesn't seem fair for me not to.

** edited for grammar, reduction of rhetoric, and adding two paragraphs.

--
Timothy P. Hadley -- tph-lex.com
Mu Chapter of Phi Kappa Tau, initiated January 1996.
Lawrence University, 1999.
University of Minnesota Law School, 2002.

Mr. Hadley, I can disagree with what you say one iota! With the one exception, I have a tremendous respect for Eric Conard as I have know hime since 1965 when I founded my local!

He knew that I wanted to do something different for many different reasons! He was instrumental in aiding me to get my group on campus against a small National. He was also instrumental in pointing me towards LXA!

Eric has been in all facets of Greek Life With TKE and has run across and against many of the Old Line Greeks from most Nationals!

Is He oppinuated, yes, why , from Knowledge of having been in teh trenches!

Does he want the Total Greek Society to Grow. Yes, as he would be more than willing to work with any new group wanting to come to a new campus.

E C may be brusque but you must try to see the thought of what is behind his posts!

i have nothing but admiration for this Interfraternal Brother as I would and do to many I have met on this Great Site!

I know he wishes I was a Member Of TKE as I Wish He was a Brother of LXA!

I and E C appreciate your response as I find it very inlighting and intellegent as that is what this fine site is for!

While We are all different, we are the same!

Here's My 2 Cents
 

On my campus at Rockhurst Univ. there are only about 1500 students and 3 fraternities and 2 sororities, for about 20% involvement in Greek Life.

From a fraternity standpoint, Pike has 60 guys, TKE has 30, and Alpha Delta Gamma has 2. SAE was kicked off our campus recently for hazing with about 45-50.

Without the SAEs on campus, the Pikes main competition I guess is from TKE. Pike is the only organization with university housing, and basically dominates without competition. However, how hard is it to really dominate if your chapter has no real rival?

As an active, I helped create this success for my chapter. Now, as an alum, alot of my hard work is going down the drain because the chapter is becoming lazy. In my opinion, they are taking on the attitudes and ideas of the lesser chapters because they don't have to worry about losing rush or Homecoming or things like this. Those things that we worked so hard to win now are second thoughts!

I would love to see Sig Ep or Beta come onto our campus although the university will not let them. It would motivate the Pikes and hopefully the other chapters on campus to get their acts together. Even when Pike was not the top chapter on our campus, we at least had a standard to look up to. Now, even at the top, there is no one climbing the mountain!

This is Eric's point and is incredibly insightful and indicative of how ALL GLO's should think. Regardless of anything else, competition is a great way to build leadership skills in an organization, and needs to be embraced by ALL GLO's!!!

Re: Here's My 2 Cents
 

I'm all the way behind the idea that every group should strive to excel. But counting numbers, while easy, is not the only measure of excellence, and I do not think there should be an arbitrary cutoff where a chapter is deemed worthless because it slipped below the magic numbers line.

Erik was talking as though numbers are the sole measure of a chapter's merit, and that a chapter with fewer than, say, somewhere from 35 to 50 members ought to be shut down. I don't think that's an exaggeration of what he's been arguing, if you read back through his posts. That way of looking at the life and the potential in a chapter leaves too much out. Bad years happen. Bad fives of years happen, sometimes even though committed members try to prevent them. Sometimes you have a group that has good people but has trouble marketing itself. Its members can still have a strong fraternal experience. Other times you have a group that has had a few crops with too many bad apples. They have to reform the chapter as well as figure out marketing. Either way, times like that can be followed by years of excellence.

I, too, would ordinarily not expect a chapter that is down to 10-15 members to survive; I agree that a chapter in that kind of situation would probably have to set expansion as its top priority. But when a group that size has shown its determination to survive, then it's not yet time to put the charter in trust. I know of an example where a sorority chapter is rebounding from about five or six members (with some out of town) to 14 now, and I predict quite a few more this year. It's deferred rush, so we have to wait and see. They're a remarkable group, and I believe that they have what it takes to survive in a situation where recruitment is very difficult and to show off Greek excellence while doing it. If someone had arbitrarily shut them down at some point in the last few years, they would never have had the chance.

My chapter was down to 14 in 1995 but rebounded nicely. It would have been an astonishing shame to lose them in 1995. I am pretty certain that I would not have gone Greek (at that time, none of the other chapters on campus fit with my personality, and I hadn't even considered going Greek until I met my future brothers, so it would have passed me by). We certainly wouldn't be here today to have people saying things about us like you see at the very end of this post.

Thanks for your post.

excellent...
 

your posted reply was excellent and it further explained, only much better, what I felt. Do not deny a good man a chance
to be a Greek. Fraternally, Erik P Conard, TKE

bump

ZEKE thanks for the bump!:)

What Eric Conard is trying to say, that if a house cannot support itself, they will be gone.

He is well aware of the situation as The TKE Chapter was closed at my Alma Mater. He had be the advisor there before!

He has worked with Chapters all over the country. He is what is called speaking from experience not just blathering.

Chapters run in cycles. Up Down, Up Down.

I never was one to be down on smaller chapters on a campus unless they are fighting against strong numbers of other groups!

What I am against, is that there are Houses with so many people that they can never know their own members! These over huge house are keeping women away from other Houses who may be having trouble and they then leave capmus!

That would be a proud moment wouldnt it??

It saddens me anytime a Greek Org. leaves a campus!

As an idiot Greek Advisor...
 

The vast majority of Greek Advisors are members of a fraternity or sorority. While given there are some idiots in every profession, the vast majority of us would love to expand our Greek communities on our campuses. The reality is, many of us are hamstrung by upper-level administrators who don't care for Greek Life, and would rather see it slowly die than flourish. There are many of us who work dilligently to assist all our chapters on our campuses, especially the struggling ones. Every year I push my bosses for expansion only to be told no, they see no need for it. We are a commuter institution with 10,000 undergraduates and less than 4% Greek, yet time and again my bosses hold up the example of the national fraternity that established a colony that folded a year later (a very poorly managed expansion I might add). Anyway, the issue often lies higher up the chain of command than "Our idiot Greek Advisor won't let us expand."

Expanding our system
 

BSU-Phi Sig...your excellent analysis, as fits your campus, is a well-thought-out presentation. SIU, Edwardsville, for example, is one of those extension schools, commuter-historically, that
we have tried to "fit" into. It will never have a system like, say, the
Washington U (private school) or even Truman State (an overhauled teachers' college). You will experience a somewhat
neighbor hostitly as your house, if you have one, will be smack-
dab in the middle of a residential area. The drawing-power of your chapter will have to be oriented differently than the typical
GLO chapter, and each school will be different.
HOWEVER, you can still offer a good fraternity experience, love
your brothers and cherish the opportunity, for the college will not
give a rat's ass much more than offering a drive-thru, fast food- type education...no offense intended, that is simply how it is.
BUT...you can encourage the formation of locals, and they in turn
can petition the poobahs for recognition. You need not wait for the roast duck to drop from the sky. The college administrators will not help you and that is not their "job."
SO, take the reins yourselves. Hug your advisors, they have a very thankless job, and get busy.
The experience of building a custom-made system will give you a step up on leadership when you get out.
Fraternity is for life...drink from the flagon of the greatest youth movement ever...you will savor it always. Now-- GET BUSY!