Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 2017123)

I agree -- there are other works that do a better job of teaching people about slavery. I think HF has become one of the everyone else has read it, so you'd better read it too, lest you miss some references! books.

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 2017148)

This is also random, but did everyone read A Modest Proposal in school? It's an example of a skilled humorist writing something that lays out exactly what the English thought of the Irish in a way that modern readers can actually understand I think.

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid (Post 2017279)

And even still just because it's in society, doesn't make it 'right' or 'smart'.

Originally Posted by Animate (Post 2017284)

Not right or wrong in my opinion. Its usage can make it not smart though.

Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 2017153)

As for a more inane book, that's easy: The Old Man and the Sea.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 2017117)

I remember reading this book in middle school. I lived in an affluent suburb at the time, but was not uncomfortable using the word in that context. Everyone else got nervous while reading it, to the point where they were asking me to say it every time the word came up.

/random sidebar

Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 2017165)

As for The Great Gatsby, I don't think it should EVER be taught to HS students. It's one of those books you can't appreciate till you're older. I didn't read it till I was in my early 30s and it's one of my 2 favorite books. I know I wouldn't have "gotten it" in HS.

Originally Posted by Shellfish (Post 2017233)

As for edited books, last year I was reading about the authors of the Nancy Drew books, and it turned out that many were revised in the 1960s to lose offensive stereotypes in the originals from the 1920s and 1930s. I have to admit that this made me want to get hold of one of the older versions just to see how bad they were, because I'd probably only read the newer versions.

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid (Post 2017152)

@drole...slight correction, there are hip hop courses that are being taught in schools.

Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 2017153)

This is the main reason I've never made it past a few chapters. It drove me crazy.

Originally Posted by KSig RC (Post 2017158)

Second this eek

Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 2017165)

Tangent, Anne's gotten edited on & off over the years as well. Some people weren't cool with her rhapsodising about another girl's boobies. :)

Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 2017169)

http://www.smilieshq.com/smilies/confused0060.gif

I'm not sure I like the implicit assumption here.

Originally Posted by Munchkin03 (Post 2017187)

For me, a lot of it depends on the role the book has. I know that recently, Judy Blume approved changing parts of "Are You There God? It's Me Margaret," to reflect the changes from pads/belts to tampons and pads. .

Originally Posted by Gusteau (Post 2017221)

On the other hand, I feel like a learned a lot of things about history and culture by investigating the things I didn't understand in books. I tend to see "out of date" references as a learning opportunity, but I get what you're saying.

I never read Huck Finn, so I can only comment further by saying how disappointed I am the Drole doesn't like The Great Gatsby.

Originally Posted by ThetaPrincess24 (Post 2017283)

I read that in college and am in agreement it is easy to understand.

Originally Posted by sceniczip (Post 2017355)

I LOVED Gatsby in HS! It was my favorite book I read all through high school.

I'm teaching a Modest Proposal to my students this semester. So excited :D

Originally Posted by AGDee (Post 2017358)

I enjoyed The Great Gatsby, On The Road, Huck Finn, The Crucible.. but I have to agree with MysticCat re: Old Man and the Sea. Beowulf was pretty awful to get through as were The Canterbury Tales because of the old language.

My kids read these required books out loud in class too. I think I would have slit my throat if I'd had to listen to my peers read these things out loud. My English teacher did read Beowulf to us and used an accent when doing so, which was weird too. Thankfully, the rest of them we read on our own. I loved To Kill a Mockingbird and Catcher in the Rye too. The whole stream of consciousness thing was a fascinating idea to me.

I love books.

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 2017438)

Sorry, Gatsby just doesn't do it for me. I found it so pointless. But then don't ask me about Jane Austen either. It took Zombies to get me to read P&P and even then I was kind of thinking "why would I bother with this except for the zombies?" It only supported my dislike.

Originally Posted by KSig RC (Post 2017490)

Austen and the Bronte sisters can retroactively invent flight so they can plummet into the ocean together, so I agree with you there. (And Boston University claims I'm qualified to speak on this matter, so F YOU pre-Victorian lit) And so that it's not all females, Nathaniel Hawthorne can be the steward on that flight into the abyss.

The pointlessness of the Great Gatsby is part of the author's intent, so if it's a turnoff, then obviously that's going to affect greatly your enjoyment - and let's face it, literature is amazingly subjective, so it's all good.

Originally Posted by Shellfish (Post 2017233)

As for edited books, last year I was reading about the authors of the Nancy Drew books, and it turned out that many were revised in the 1960s to lose offensive stereotypes in the originals from the 1920s and 1930s. I have to admit that this made me want to get hold of one of the older versions just to see how bad they were, because I'd probably only read the newer versions.

Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 2017514)

I have a couple Bobbsey Twins (from the same writing stable) that are 1950s editions, and they refer to their "colored" maid and handyman. It's more a sort of patronizing attitude than anything else. Although one also involved supposed Gypsies and I don't think that flies nowadays either.

As far as the Brontes, I think it took me 2 months to read Jane Eyre - and this was back when I plowed through multiple books in a week.

Originally Posted by Kevin (Post 2017092)

Likely schools told publishing companies that they would simply read different books until the edits were made. Publishing companies, wanting to continue to sell books probably complied.

Originally Posted by Alumiyum (Post 2017328)

Doing a word replacement using "slave" is kind of a sloppy fix, but as long as the original is available, whatever. I can see the revised version being a better choice in schools, mostly for the reason k_s talks about.

Originally Posted by Munchkin03 (Post 2017658)

On NPR this morning, there was an interview with the professor (a Twain scholar at Auburn) who did the editing. His daughter's friend, a black girl, mentioned how "disgusting" it was to read Huck Finn and it turned her off from reading Twain. Being that he was a Twain scholar, it gave him the sadz and he wondered what he could do about it.

It's still lame! His daughter's friend is a black girl from Alabama--seriously, she found reading that word in a historical/literary context disgusting? I can think of many other instances where it's far more offensive.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel (Post 2017661)

I agree. It's an attempt to sanitize our past and pretend like this word never existed in common language. If we don't let our children now the origins and real use of the N-word, how will they ever now WHY it is offensive in the first place?

Originally Posted by Gusteau (Post 2017221)

On the other hand, I feel like a learned a lot of things about history and culture by investigating the things I didn't understand in books. I tend to see "out of date" references as a learning opportunity, but I get what you're saying.

Originally Posted by sceniczip (Post 2017355)

It's just weird to edit it. I read it in HS and hated it but don't remember any real awkwardness reading it out loud and we did read some out loud.

Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 2017645)

According to a story my wife heard yesterday, it was pressure from parents who didn't want their kids reading the original version.

My problem with using "slave" as the replacement is that it doesn't mean the same thing. You've not only lost the original word, you've lost the meaning that was intended.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel (Post 2017661)

I agree. It's an attempt to sanitize our past and pretend like this word never existed in common language. If we don't let our children now the origins and real use of the N-word, how will they ever now WHY it is offensive in the first place?

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 2017740)

So here's a question, for those of us lucky enough to not know the n-word or any other slur/offensive word up to a certain age because we weren't called it, when do you want your kid to find out the word exists? Do you introduce Huck Finn to a kid who's never heard the n-word before? Apply this to the c-word, or to other racial or ethnic slurs too.

Also, the years of teaching Huck Finn haven't exactly erased the current use of it as a slur either, so while that may be the ideal, I'm not sure it's actually successful.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel (Post 2017747)

I don't know how many kids by that age REALLY don't know these offensive words. I think parents would love to think their kids don't know them, but kids hear a lot of things in school, on tv, in music and at the movies. They aren't stupid. Some parents are just too cowardly to talk to their kids about why these words are unacceptable to them and society.

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 2017751)

That's not the question though. I didn't listen to rap growing up, I was never called the n-word, no one in my family used the n-word. I went to a private school that was almost all white and never heard it used there. Huck Finn was one of my first exposures to it. Now, I was privileged not to have to know about the n-word then. But the same question applies. I'm talking about legitimate situations where the kids have not been exposed to that language and I'm not talking about fuck, shit, or even bitch but words that are considered slurs and fairly universally offensive ones.

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 2017751)

That's not the question though. I didn't listen to rap growing up, I was never called the n-word, no one in my family used the n-word. I went to a private school that was almost all white and never heard it used there. Huck Finn was one of my first exposures to it. Now, I was privileged not to have to know about the n-word then. But the same question applies. I'm talking about legitimate situations where the kids have not been exposed to that language and I'm not talking about fuck, shit, or even bitch but words that are considered slurs and fairly universally offensive ones.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel (Post 2017755)

I guess I grew up in a different environment:D I honestly knew that word by at least age 7...probably younger. What age is Huck Finn usually taught? I don't remember reading it in school. I read it on my own.

Originally Posted by knight_shadow (Post 2017823)

Now, for clarification, which c-word are we referring to? The one included in "raccoon" or "c u next tuesday"?

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 2017740)

So here's a question, for those of us lucky enough to not know the n-word or any other slur/offensive word up to a certain age because we weren't called it, when do you want your kid to find out the word exists? Do you introduce Huck Finn to a kid who's never heard the n-word before? Apply this to the c-word, or to other racial or ethnic slurs too.

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito (Post 2017826)

Never read Huck Finn I don't think. What is the lesson that it is supposed to teach? If it is racism I can think of much better books, like To Kill a Mocking Bird.

Originally Posted by KSig RC (Post 2017852)

Huck Finn assails racist beliefs in a MUCH different fashion than To Kill a Mocking Bird - in fact, the existence of racism might be the only overlap.

For that reason, it shouldn't be a "one-or-the-other" thing - Huck Finn's angle essentially attacks the fundamental stupidity of embracing Christian values while denigrating other races, and is somewhat biting in tone and effect.

In short: To Kill a Mockingbird is probably better literature, but Huck Finn might be the stronger argument.

Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 2017811)

When I was 12, I pronounced Arab as Ay-rab in class and everyone laughed at me. I honestly thought that was the pronunciation and had no idea it was derogatory. I'm glad I was corrected! Not that we had any Arabs anywhere in our town, which of course is why I was ignorant about it.

I don't think the n-word and the c-word are in the same category. TNT can show a Law & Order rerun where the n-bomb gets dropped multiple times and nothing happens. (It was an episode where Courtney B Vance was accused of killing his white boss and he was the one who used the word.) If they had an episode with the c-bomb, I doubt they would get away with that no matter the context, they would probably get fined.

The only reason that racial terms have become as offensive as they have is because the country as a whole has changed. The c-word, however, has been offensive I think pretty much since its creation.

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 2017861)

I just don't think HF is taught well enough for students to get that. I didn't at that age. I think I got "slavery is bad" and "this is hard to read" out of it, honestly.

Originally Posted by Mark Twain

It made me shiver. And I about made up my mind to pray; and see if I couldn't try to quit being the kind of a boy I was, and be better. So I kneeled down. But the words wouldn't come. Why wouldn't they? It warn't no use to try and hide it from Him. Nor from me, neither. I knowed very well why they wouldn't come. It was because my heart warn't right; it was because I warn't square; it was because I was playing double. I was letting on to give up sin, but away inside of me I was holding on to the biggest one of all. I was trying to make my mouth say I would do the right thing and the clean thing, and go and write to that nigger's owner and tell where he was; but deep down in me I knowed it was a lie-and He knowed it. You can't pray a lie- I found that out.

So I was full of trouble, full as I could be; and didn't know what to do. At last I had an idea; and I says, I'll go and write the letter- and then see if I can pray. Why, it was astonishing, the way I felt as light as a feather, right straight off, and my troubles all gone. So I got a piece of paper and a pencil, all glad and excited, and set down and wrote:

Miss Watson your runaway nigger Jim is down here two mile below Pikesville and Mr. Phelps has got him and he will give him up for the reward if you send. HUCK FINN

I felt good and all washed clean of sin for the first time I had ever felt so in my life, and I knowed I could pray now. But I didn't do it straight off, but laid the paper down and set there thinking- thinking how good it was all this happened so, and how near I come to being lost and going to hell. And went on thinking. And got to thinking over our trip down the river; and I see Jim before me, all the time; in the day, and in the night-time, sometimes moonlight, sometimes storms, and we a floating along, talking, and singing, and laughing. But somehow I couldn't seem to strike no places to harden me against him, but only the other kind. I'd see him standing my watch on top of his'n, stead of calling me, so I could go on sleeping; and see him how glad he was when I come back out of the fog; and when I come to him agin in the swamp, up there where the feud was; and such-like times; and would always call me honey, and pet me, and do everything he could think of for me, and how good he always was; and at last I struck the time I saved him by telling the men we had smallpox aboard, and he was so grateful, and said I was the best friend old Jim ever had in the world, and the only one he's got now; and then I happened to look around, and see that paper.

It was a close place. I took it up, and held it in my hand. I was a trembling, because I'd got to decide, forever, betwixt two things, and I knowed it. I studied a minute, sort of holding my breath, and then says to myself:

"All right, then, I'll go to hell"- and tore it up.

It was awful thoughts, and awful words, but they was said. And I let them stay said; and never thought no more about reforming. I shoved the whole thing out of my head; and said I would take up wickedness again, which was in my line, being brung up to it, and the other warn't. And for a starter, I would go to work and steal Jim out of slavery again; and if I could think up anything worse, I would do that, too; because as long as I was in, and in for good, I might as well go the whole hog.

Originally Posted by Drolefille (Post 2017862)

But if the book was a classic would you teach it? Or the movie? And if you don't think the c-word is comparable, what about slurs against Hispanics or Asians? My question then is when do you introduce kids to things they actually haven't heard.