Funny you call me a Republican even though I'm a registered Independent and have NEVER voted for a Republican candidate before but that's neither here nor there. Also, why don't you and your friends donate that tax windfall to charity, Hell maybe you should contact that paper in Macon and offer to pay that woman's heating bill this winter. Not holding my breath on that one...

I have to admit, I didn't read the article until a minute ago. The article basically says that assistance is received on a first come, first served basis. The first 219 people in line got assistance. It seems to me that it would make more sense to get applications from everybody requesting assistance and determining highest need from there. To just give it to the first (insert number) people in line seems totally crazy.

Hyperbole for the sake of the point.

No shit there isn't anything wrong with cooking meals from scratch, I said "all" for a reason. And people who have always had homes with stoves and kitchens with space to store food in a bug-free environment seem to think that everyone has access to those same facilities. Not to mention the knowledge that does not always exist because it wasn't passed down.

If you think I want people buying $500 purses, then you're not listening. The point is you don't know what the fuck is going on in that woman's life, but you have decided you know better than her what is good for her and how exactly she's fucked up based on a photograph.

As long as you know that not everyone has interpreted the discussion in this thread the same way that you and perhaps AOIIAngel have.

Moreover, you seemed defensive and that you had your mind made up about this subject to the point where it did not matter what PiKA said in his very first post. You were quick to assume that he (and anyone else who shared a sentiment about that photo) had his head up his ass and was being judgmental. That's presumptuous and judgmental on your part because you do not know PiKA and what he may have had to deal with all of his life (beyond what he has shared) that provides the context for his posts.

I criticize middle-class white people who live beyond their means, too.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/ma...pagewanted=all

^^These people were rightly raked across the coals for their lack of planning and irresponsibility and their sense of entitlement.

I'm an ant putting food away for the winter, and I get grouchy about ALL the grasshoppers, rich and poor. My TV is 20 years old. I got it 8 years ago when my parents discarded it. I've put away more than enough money for a huge and fancy new TV every month for the last 8 years. But you know, the old TV works just fine, and I'll keep it until it dies. I know my attitude makes me a weirdo in this country, but the fact is, better decision-making would keep many people away from the brink.

I'm a huge liberal who thinks we should increase home heating assistance (not to mention unemployment benefits, health insurance subsidies, Section 8, etc.). However, I reserve the right to make grouchy comments about careless spending at the same time.
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Sweet_Pupsik Live

I'm judgmental based on what people say, absolutely. And I work very hard not to make assumptions about them in the process, I operate based on the words that people write, the things they take responsibility for. If he included himself in the group of people with heads up anuses then that is his prerogative. And I would still extend that sentiment to anyone who made judgments and assumptions about the subject of the picture who doesn't actually know her full situation. There is a distinction between pointing out irony and judging as well. Had PIKA's posts not trailed down into making those assumptions about the subject, I wouldn't personally have categorized him in the judgmental asshat category, but they did, so I did.

And yeah, I'm defensive. I've worked with a range of people in poverty from those with mental illness who make bad choices and can't help it, to those who stubbornly make bad choices over and over again with full foreknowledge to those who are absolutely trying the best they can. Knowing that has only highlighted exactly how big of an asshole people can be to people in poverty purely because they're poor. I've also BEEN poor, although relatively privileged in it and am still working on not being poor any more. I didn't access foodstamps because I was too ashamed to, despite the fact I've paid taxes, I qualified, I met the need. Instead I borrowed more from Student Loans.

The idea that people who receive state assistance should bow to the whims of the taxpayers - and the people who think this usually want them to bow to THEIR whims and live to THEIR standards, not the standards of anyone who disagrees - is offensive.

Ha! Me and my "friends" will be saving that money like we always do instead of using it to "create new jobs." Don't you know that's the way trickle down really works? I'm so sorry I pegged you as a Republican, but you sure sound like one. I sure didn't ask for my tax windfall...most will probably get saved, though I give a significant part of my salary every year to charity. As for contacting the Macon paper to pay this lady's bills, holding your breath is stupid. So, because I think it's dumb to judge the poor for their choices and expect them to live in a cardboard box before they can ask for help means that I personally have to support every single person that needs help? I may have a tax windfall in the future, but that's not feasible, and your rhetorhic is always over the top. This is why we have government programs to help because they CAN have widespread reach.

Means-testing is a very old idea when it comes to public benefits. Asking people to demonstrate their need for services is a hardly a whim. I suppose you could reject means-testing altogether and give heating assistance to anyone who requests it, no questions asked. But if means-testing is appropriate, then it has to be OK to debate where the line should be drawn. The size of one's TV is crude means test, to be sure, but there's a legitimate principle at work here.
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WEB SHOWS

Why don't you put your money where your mouth is then? If you are against YOUR tax cut and believe you shouldn't receive it then donate it (as opposed to saving it) to a non profit that assists the needy.

I really don't think you're getting my point here. I think since you are ASSUMING that I'm a Republican you are reading between the lines and think that I'm anti welfare. I never said anything about letting people live in cardboard boxes or cutting out welfare, but we need to be helping the people who really need help and not the people trying to maintain their lifestyle. How is it "fair" if a lady who shows up in line first but owns a late model car and an expensive entertainment system gets assistance over a lady who has never been able to afford a car or a entertainment system? IDK if you read the article posted by Low C but do you think that family should get utility credits, foodstamps, free school lunch program? I mean, they are struggling!

I don't see a substantive distinction between pointing out irony and making, what you perceive to be, a judgment. It's really the same thing. Then again, I try to avoid getting lost in people's tone, and whether they come across as an asshat, and focus on what's embedded in what people say.

You are not the only person in this thread who has professional and/or personal experience with poverty. That does not mean that everyone with professional and personal experience with poverty will interpret and respond to this topic in the same manner.

I make the distinction based on how many assumptions someone is putting onto a subject and whether that person is then deciding something fundamental about the subject, generally negative, based on essentially no actual information.

Pointing something out: Huh, that guy likes to wear pink shirts a lot.
Making assumptions: He's probably gay because he wears pink shirts.
Judging: He shouldn't be gay, that's bad. (or alternatively)

Pointing something out: Hey she has a pretty nice TV.
Making assumptions: She's living beyond her means. She cannot manage money well. She spent taxpayer money on that TV.
Judging: She doesn't deserve help because she has that TV. If she really needed help she'd have sold that TV. It looks bad for her to have that TV.

Nope, I'm not. But it's the way I respond and will continue to do so. You can argue that my response only created the reaction I expected from others, but I don't actually care about that in this context.

No, looking at the size of one's TV is a pretty absurd way to judge whether someone needs assistance or not. Someone can have a very nice car, and received it as a gift or be borrowing it from family, or still have it from a time when times were better. They might have people willing to help them pay for the car, but who can't help with anything more. The car itself doesn't mean anything about one's ability to manage rent, utilities, etc. but some people make those assumptions. The standards in place look at income, assets and expenditures - rent, bills, etc. I've been pretty firmly supporting the standards in place, and not the "You're using my tax money so act the way I like with it" people.

So no, it's neither legitimate nor actually means testing.

That's cool because you acknowledge that your response was primarily based on your defensiveness and your perception.

This is exactly what was said after the observations (read: not judgments) were made. It escalated because you took it there.

I'm going to say that both Drolefile and PIKA have a good point. I see both sides of what they are saying. I will say, "Hey, since when has it been seen as an insult to consider someone a Republican?"

I'm a Republican. I won't tell you what side of the fence I stand on this issue, though. You decide. ;)

I'm not going back to read all the posts in this thread, but who brought up party affiliation?

I'm with you-I'm too lazy to go back and check. I just saw that he was saying something about not being a Republican but, instead being an Independent.

LOL. AOII Angel. I don't know how she intended it, though.

Got it.

I don't even know what the hi-jack has to do with affiliation lol I think there was a misunderstanding of a poster's intent and a 'back and forth' due to someone (seemingly) playing black sheep.

Dem vs Rep vs Ind doesn't fit into that, at least to me.

Yes, it's all my fault for provoking other people into comparing this situation with welfare fraud and bitching about a guy using food stamps and buying beer with cash in the same transaction. I'm so terribly sorry that I made them do that.

:rolleyes:

Feel free to actually point out how I derailed the conversation if you disagree.

Train of conversation goes like this:
"I don't want to judge but... "
"You're judging."
"but it looks bad."
"It shouldn't look like anything. People need to think."
"I did think... that she should sell it if she's really needy."

LOL. I see the train of conversation as this:

OP: "There is irony in this photo and it sucks that the photo was taken in front of her big flat screen TV. I don't know her but that photo kinda sucks."
Drolefille: "You are judging and that TV has nothing to do with anything (that's also an assumption)...oh look the article says she was once employed."
PiKA: "Yeah there is irony in that photo but perhaps the TV was bought during better times."
Drolefille: "Forget what you said about better times and irony in the photo...you are also judging and again that TV has nothing to do with anything (that's also an assumption) and I wish people would get their heads out of their asses and think (that's also an assumption)."
The audience: "Badumpalumpadumpalump...womp womp!"
PiKA: "Well, um...there is irony in that photo and the rest of what I'm going to type goes beyond my initial point of irony and will be interpreted to you as insult to the poor regardless of what I type."
Me: "Yeah I see how there can be irony in that photo and it reminds me of people in housing projects who have DishTV."
Drolefille: "Pointing out irony is different than judging."
Me: "Not really. They were also pointing out irony and I was also stating that it not only looks ironic but, if she hasn't done so already, she needs to try to sell that technology in the background of that photo."
The audience: "Badumpalumpadumpalump...womp womp!"

:D

So, it went from "don't take a picture in front of a big TV" to "stop being judgmental because she could have gotten the TV earlier" to "yea, she probably did get the TV earlier, but she shouldn't have taken a picture in front of it" to "remove your heads from your asses."

With your background, it makes sense that you would be able to provide a different perspective, but that doesn't mean that others aren't allowed to pose questions. We don't know this woman, so this is just discussion.

K_S, i'm very specific about telling people directly if I'm including them in the heads/asses category. If I'd included PIKA in that statement, I would have said so.

And see my previous comment about the difference between asking questions and making judgments. If you don't think that where PIKA ended up in this conversation was judgmental, that's your prerogative. I didn't make anyone say anything they didn't want to say, and like I said, I'm not moved by the argument that my tone was the problem here.

/or you know, I'm just bitchy because I have an ex or something.

ETA: These are personal opinions btw. Informed by my professional experiences, but personal. The things my professional opinions are oriented towards are more like emotions, thinking patterns, and mental illnesses. In my job I wouldn't call someone a judgmental asshole. Unless I thought it would really clinically benefit him to hear it.

That assumes that others in this thread don't share Drolefille's background or that most people with Drolefille's background share her sentiments outside of a professional context (personal opinions are often kept separate from the professional).

Ain't no one posing questions and no one is pretending to know the woman in the photo. It's really just a general discussion of social welfare based on appearances and that's what the irony of the photo is--appearances. LOL.

You included PiKA in the "needing to think" category and that's why he responded as he did. LOL.

Asking questions for what? What is there to ask? LOL.

I wouldn't say you were not totally unmoved by the subject matter. You already said you were defensive based on your experiences.

This discussion is really quite funny to me because such discussions assume that people are so fragile that they can't hear some brutal truths even if the brutal truths don't apply 100% to their personal circumstances. Smart people who can let go of their ego for a minute are able to see whether their life choices have shaped their financial outcomes. That's one of the first lessons when talking to people within the Black community about poverty. If you're going to be all mad and assume that people are judging you (in general) just because they are only going based on the information in front of them (i.e. a flat screen TV when you're asking for financial assistance), you will have a very long financial road ahead of you.

Why is she taking a picture in front of that big ass TV? wasn't explicitly asked, but I gathered that from the responses.

No, I didn't, those were the same sentence.
I don't know, ks is the one saying they're being asked.


Yep, but I don't take responsibility for anyone else's responses, nor do I believe my tone is responsible for some how taking this thread down the road it went, somehow making people say assholish things.

I think there's a pretty big difference between talking to, and talking about. And if this had been a more general conversation rather than a specifically targeted one I would have felt differently about the responses.

I do put my money where my mouth is. I vote Democratic. I donate money to charity. I also save money so that I do have that cushion we have been talking about. It's called being responsible. If I wasn't putting my money where my mouth was, I'd just go out and buy a 3D TV and a new surround sound system and maybe some furniture with the money.

As for "fair", I'll let you in on something. Life isn't fair. The asshats who set up the program made the program that way. It's not the fault of the woman who needs assistance that has more means than her neighbor and gets the assistance because she showed up first if that's the way the program was set up. I haven't had time to read the story posted by Low C sharp since I've been working all day, but I'll get around to it. This country has been all about cutting off aid because people think the poor are just trying to get something for nothing....until of course someone THEY know needs assistance.

Also, I think you are missing the point that you have no way of knowing that people are trying to "maintain their lifestyles." Sorry, if welfare money is a lifestyle, it's a pretty crappy one.

I already know why she's taking the picture in front of the TV: She wasn't thinking about the irony and wasn't paying attention to her background. The photographer and reporter probably were. LOL.

:) So keep the judgmental party going.

Ahhh...there's that party affiliation thing.

I don't think there's any difference between talking to and talking about and that difference that you see is based on your perception (just as the perceived difference between pointing out irony and judging).

No one cares about this woman and her TV. She was used as an illustration of a larger point. She, specifically, was lost in the discussion pages ago. We've moved on to talking about people in the projects who have rims on their cars and how poor people can sell their flat screen TVs.

Feel free to disagree, but I'd rather be talked to about something than talked about behind my back, for example. And working with a community provides a lot more knowledge than the anecdata presented so often by people who have minmal experience or contact with the population. While the discussion has indeed moved on, originally it was directed at the individual (and later a few other individuals).

I understand what you mean. However, you're using "behind my back" as a loose example as though we are talking about gossip and personal preferences regarding respect. Not everyone with professional and personal experience with impoverished populations considers "talked to" versus "talked about" to be distinct (or an important distinction) when discussing such topics. That's just another difference in opinions.

The discussion was originally directed at the irony of a specific photo. That's only as personal and based on the individual as you perceive it to be. I don't perceive it to be as such but you do. I still get what you're saying eventhough I disagree in this context.

WOW

LOL @ the bolded for so many different reasons. :D

I know. Since when is Republican synonymous with cold-hearted a-hole that doesn't believe in giving back to charity? I'm a Republican and I give tons of money to charity. In fact, I'm a sucker when it comes to giving. All you have to do is approach me and ask. That's why my fiance was afraid to move to a semi-big city with me because he knew that anyone who would ask would get something from me. I take real offense to that statement that because you vote Democrat, you must be "doing your part" AOII. I'm really disappointed in your assumptions-and I usually agree with much of what you say.

Wow for what? If you haven't figured out that life isn't fair at this point, you will have a pretty miserable life wringing your hands in misery. Shit happens. And I stand by my earlier part of the post, too. You may have a different ideology, but I don't agree with independents who ride the fence. :D (Does a big grin make that feel better?)

I'm not talking about giving to charity with the democratic comment, als. That's why I made those two distinct ways that I put my money where my mouth is. I'm talking about supporting welfare programs through taxes. Read the whole comment stream between PIKA and I. We were discussing my tax cut thanks to the Republicans. I said that the tax cut for the top 2% was ridiculous, which is why I commented that I do my part about the tax issue by voting Democratic. It's hard to keep up when you come in at the end of a discussion.