LOL!

Nailed it on the head.

I don't think it would make sense to do it. Since NPC new members are "public" from the get-go, you'd be doing a probate on day 1.

Not really.

All orgs take on the traditions of their campus. It has little to do with wanting to actually be in an NPHC org.

When APO chartered at Howard, it was the only non-NPHC GLO there. They sat on the Greek council and were expected to do all the same things as everyone else, for consistency and legitimacy.

Was it open to the public and just held in a fraternity house because there are no sorority houses? Or were they announcing them to that fraternity? Because if the second, then ick.

The closest we got to "presenting" our pledge classes was putting an ad in the school paper welcoming them after bid day and then when they were initiated.

NIC = National Interfraternity Conference - the national body.
IFC = Inter Fraternity Council - the campus governing body.

Along that same vein, although not used as frequently:
NPC = National Panhellenic Conference - the national body
PHC = Panhellenic Council - the campus governing body

Hope that helped :)

It has little to do with that for those who don't want to be in an NPHC org. It has everything to do with that for those who want to be in an NPHC org, as evidenced by what I was specifically referencing. :)

You call it consistency and legitimacy and I call it mirroring the NPHC orgs that largely impacted the campus culture.

Yes, because I am right.

I was referring to why probate videos tend not to show up on youtube.

Like I joked on myself about but now must be real serious, you are not gonna see a Probate show online. (Only reason I bring this up is because you responded to my comment about does anybody really "probate" anymore). Not if they don't want it used as evidence against them.

What we call probate shows today are plentiful on youtube. They are really come out shows. I believe it was pointed out in another thread.

My first and only probate show I saw was on my campus when I was a freshman. Only one org was bold and brave enough to do it (and during my freshman year it was only three orgs on campus...the rest were on..."timeout".)

By the time I was ready to pledge, they stopped doing them. Never understood until an old head told me in love, when I thought I was a Super Bad Neo, the deal.

I'm with you except for the underlined sentence. If by "probate" you mean a "show" while you're still pledging, it still happens, and often. Perhaps we're talking about different things now.

To me, a literal probate is what people now call a surfacing. And, what we refer to as probates now are coming out shows.

I don't like the idea of surfacing because it does little more than give you the impetus to continue pledging right before things get really bad.

K

Yep what you call surfacing was once called probate.

And yes I can believe some people still do it. Does not take away from the fact that not posting doesn't for the most part have anything to do with respect, but because of the broad definition of hazing as adopted by the NPHC, if anything were to happen between surfacing/probate show and from when Grad Chapter/regionals/nationals receives said information that the people participating are members of the organization...it is evidence if something happens between that time.

Maaaaan, SEE! LOL!

You might want to speak for yourself and perhaps where you're from. I've been greek over 17 years now (and currently active and working with undergrad members) and this is the first I'm hearing of "surfacing," so it's not a universal word, not at all.

Although some of what you see online these days aren't true coming out shows either. Fools.

Oh Lord.

If I didn't know you been in the game 17 plus years, that comment proves it.

LOL

That you haven't heard of it doesn't make it a unicorn. :)

Wow. Is my age showing? LOL.

WOMP WOMP @ this thread :)

Only four years longer than I've been Greek. I've been talking about non-NPHCs in this thread as I would not want to insinuate that NPHC orgs pledge.

Wait, I'm confused. So what is the difference between a "probate" and a "coming out show?" From the context of this thread, it looks as though probate is a show that happens before initiation (and seems to be something negative). Is that what y'all are saying? Because I've only ever heard the two used interchangeably, no difference at all.

And yes, I Googled before asking but all that came up was a bunch of legal stuff, that Kevin probably put out there just to confuse me. ;) Though this was good for a laugh--gotta love people going off on usernames: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...1103024AAjY9pA

Some members today use the words "probate" and "Coming out show" or "neo show" interchangeably, however a true probate was an extension (on HBCU campuses and some other campuses) of the NPHC former pledge process. The key word here being "former." Since no one should be pledging these days, true probates should also not occur. A probate is not in itself negative however since pledging is in the past, probating should be also. What you see on youtube are coming out or neo shows although some are still using the word probate and they really shouldn't be. There are similarities between a probate and coming out or neo show but they are not the same.

Wow, I never knew the terms meant anything different at all. Thanks!

They don't anymore. Colloquially, it's been twenty years since true probates have been banned, but we're still using the term, so yeah..... in 2010, it's a probate.

:)

You're so "it is what it is." There's a reason why the word is still being used and it isn't because most post-1990 members don't know the difference. Afterall, older members were/are still around.

As for what's in the youtube videos, as I said before, only those who know, know whether the people in the videos have actually "crossed." Generally speaking, those are "coming out shows" on youtube. But, I say that out of generalized assumption and habit because I don't know 95% of the (usually younger membered) chapters who care enough to put videos on youtube. So, I don't know whether all were initiated at the time of the show or whether some were to be initiated right after the show. The same goes for "coming out shows" that aren't on youtube.

Since there is a distinct difference between a probate and a coming out show, and many undergrads do know the difference, the two terms continue to exist currently and not everyone uses them interchangeably.

Most do.

I think this is an accurate general assumption since most would not dare put a true probate online and if you read the comments of most videos, you can tell that members have "crossed."

And don't get started on crossing Nationally and crossing chapter(for those chapters that still hold to that tradition). That definitely throws a wrench in what you might be watching.

Yeah my point is that we don't always know what we're watching in some cases.

I rarely watch those shows on youtube (only stepshows should be on youtube as far as I'm concerned) and I definitely don't read the youtube comments.

For the record, there are schools that not only allow, but regulate above-ground pledging, including surfacing. Granted, these schools are mostly in the northeast as far as I know.

I attended a public surfacing this past spring for which the Greek Life director had sent out a mass email invitation to the campus Greeks letting them know they were welcome to attend. Based on attestations by the organization itself as well as the pledge-like behavior of the individuals for some time after the show, it was understood that they had not yet been initiated.

Then, there's another organization on the same campus that surfaces their pledges, but not openly. They invite select people to attend.

What I think of everytime I see this thread pop up under New Posts:
http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/q...ger_rabbit.jpg

That irks me to no end.

My alma mater has started requiring the MGC organizations to have a "mass probate/coming out/showcase" at the end of each semester. Even if the students haven't been initiated, all organizations are required to participate.

Many of the older organizations (that have done coming out shows in the past and don't completely bite other organizations' styles) have been upset about it and will typically bring current members on to talk about their respective organizations. The newer organizations (who obviously searched for "Probating 101" on Youtube) will emulate the NPHC organizations' styles, including chants, steps, etc. Their new (or soon to be new) members usually have no idea what's going on, but will try to carry those things over into their active semesters.

I know that if it annoys me, it must be frustrating to the members of the NPHC community here.

There aren't any schools that formally (documented) do this for NPHC orgs. Some schools may informally do so and that's an extremely unwise (and rare) decision on their part.

I would flip. During my time both on the National Board and as a chapter advisor, I've seen Greek Life offices/campus councils do some crazy things. I can usually work something out either where I get my way or where we come to a good compromise.

Add to my post "for organizations that pledge" which usually means Latino/multicultural orgs these days.

Depends on how you mean "pledge." We pledge, as do lots of fraternities, but not in the sense that NPHC and MCG orgs typically mean.

When I was my chapter's advisor, I flat out told the Greek Life office that we weren't going to participate. We were exempt that year.

Since I've left, though, my organization has just sucked it up and participated.

Context should clear that up, though ;)

For people who know the difference, sure.

The thing is, there are often lots of people reading who don't know the difference and so don't know how to apply context. Confusion may ensue.

If, after 6 pages of discussion between NPHC and LGLO/MGC members about probates, said people aren't getting it, I doubt that adding a disclaimer would make a difference.

Yet some Sinfonians probate.