I prefer "womaning up." :)

My siblings and I were both bullied and were the bullies at times from elementary school to middle school. It was very cyclical and often reflected what was going on in terms of our self-esteems. But, we also knew when we, as the bullies, went too far and were (as far as we could tell) seriously hurting someone (like when the person bursts out crying). We would stop because we didn't want to be responsible for really harming someone--we didn't care about our parents finding out.

With that said, it's a void morality on the part of the bullies (you can know when to stop doing something without being afraid of getting in trouble for doing it) and perhaps some fragility on the part of some of the kids being picked on. Much of the latter has to do with having an appropriate support system to buffer the effects of the bullying. If the school and/or parental unit didn't know or didn't act on this, they are DEFINITELY partly responsible for what happened. Children aren't even fully developed mentally and emotionally. Some of them can handle negative stimuli on their own but most can't. This is why they legally have to have school and parental supervision. The school and parental supervision failed on all levels.

***Disclaimer: This texting and Internet generation were born when people were doing less face-to-face interactions and more text and web-based interactions. When we were little, we left our bullies at school or on the bus. My bullies never even called my home phone--we didn't have cellphones. It ups the ante when bullies can get to you over the Internet and distribute information about you via text and the Internet.

***Disclaimer2: These bullies were chicken shit. I don't condone, but I understand if they randomly get their asses whooped over this. Also, the articles said they were attractive, cool kids who played sports--eh, maybe they photo poorly because their photos don't reflect that.

:D Indeed.

This is a "contagion effect."

All of these kids don't have diagnosable and documentable mental and emotional disorders that contribute to their suicide response. Many of them have observed that suicide is a "quick fix" and (as is the case in many suicides, particularly for certain age groups and for females more than males) some of them may've been crying out and attempting suicide but no one found them and saved them before they killed themselves.

These are children, so I expect for them to be extremely short sighted, of little faith, and selfish (or even perceivably cowardly) in most endeavors. Therefore, when buffers are weakened or absent in their lives, it "makes sense" that more kids are choosing suicide when they feel there are no other quick fixes. Family only matters but so much for kids--kids get to an age where it seems as though they'd rather be liked by their peers than anything else. It is sad because fast forward a few years and they could've said what a lot of people say, which is "I remember when I was 10 and I was bullied--I was tormented. I was soooo depressed...thank God I got over that hurdle and didn't harm myself or others."

Suicide increases with age and is highest for those over the age of 50, so it's really interesting when suicide rates increase in the younger age groups. There are a number of explanations for this.

That would make a lot more sense. Thanks.

I know that back in my day I would have rather DIED than told parents or teachers about being bullyed - but it was such a different era. The computer is as much a part of these kids' lives as TV was ours - just turning it off really isn't an option unless you want to completely divorce yourself from society. As others have said, it's not like when you could come home, lose yourself in TV or radio or a book, and forget about it for an evening and steel yourself to face another day. It's like how a lot of grown people can't ever leave their job behind because of cell phones, PDAs & computers. Not only that, I think seeing it written down just makes it 100x more hideous.

Comments like this are very insensitive and shows a lack of understanding. Just like adults some teens (and children for that matter) suffer from clinical depression (most don't even know it) and some folks were born this way, with an unbalanced brain chemistry that may not allow them to see things as rationally as you or be as positive as others. Such problems are made worse by environmental issues and poor nutrition, which we can all agree is greatly impacting adults and children in our society. Whether a choice or not, most people do not choose to committ suicide over such things so obviously something is wrong. Let's not invalidate an experience (which human beings love to do) just because we can't personalize it. Also, whether a child can "man up" or not will depend on these factors as well as their upbringing.

Yeah and this is why I believe in having the family computer (the one the kids get to use) in the kitchen and parents having the password for the kid's Facebook (if the kid gets a facebook at all--I hate FB and think very little comes from having one, oh well) and other social network sites/message boards.

Parents need to turn off their phones, PDAs, and even the TV during family time--unless it's family TV time. In other words, technology really sucks and parents are in charge of how much control technology has over their households and family interactions. Keep technology either at work or in the home office as much as possible. I prefer the "if it ain't an emergency--get a life, spend time with your family--and holla at me tomorrow."

If, after dinner and family time, you (in general) decide to read Greekchat (:)) that's fine as long as it doesn't impede on supporting and monitoring your family and checking on what the kids are up to.

This does not at all mean that they did not have such disorders and if you do the research, you will see that such disorders in children and adults have greatly increased over the years due to many factors. We are not only a physically sick society but we are also more and more becoming a mental and emotionally sick society and we are doing it to ourselves in many many ways.

I conduct quantitative and qualitative research in suicide and self-harming behaviors. I also attend symposiums where people from different fields and approaches to the study and treatment of suicide debate and share their take on suicide.

What now? ;)

Not talking about suicide as a stand alone but rather more about psychological disorders in children. They are on the rise, and for adults also. Our physical well being can be directly linked to our mental and emotional well being. We are creating our own problems, all of us as a society, through everything from environmental issues to nutrition to modern medicine. So since we are all part of the problem or at least contributors, we need not throw away folks or be insensitive to these issues; could be our loved ones next. And I'm just speaking generally. We are so quick to be insensitive to other human beings or shell out blame when the issues don't personally impact us.

Suicide is never a stand alone. Isn't that what you're saying, afterall? ;) Therefore, researching and discussing suicide would include discussions and evaluations of some social, mental, and emotional correlates.

This doesn't mean that everyone agrees that all suicides are a result of mental and emotional disorders. I obviously do not.

Surely you didn't get this from my post. If you did, it is because of your assumptions of my tone and meaning.

Never make assumptions because you don't know whether the person you disagree with has already been personally impacted. But, at the same time, you don't have to be personally impacted by everything to know about it.

http://cbs11tv.com/local/school.bull...2.1601141.html

Here is a case where the boy "manned up" and dealt with it, everyone doing the appropriate thing, talked to his parents, parents talked to administrators, etc. yet the shithead bullies still didn't stop until the kid ended up in the emergency room with a torn rectum from a wedgie.

Parents wanted kids punished by school, not enough response, so they went to the cops. What was the punishment? Supervised counseling :rolleyes:

Boy, that's gonna show them.

As to the situation with this poor girl who committed suicide and the 9 bullies.

I wonder how the parents of the bullies are feeling now? From things I've read online, these kids had horrific facebook pages, with one of the girls brother's status saying, "N****** suck, White Power!" Lovely. Real paragons of virtue, these ones.

Regardless of the eventual punishment, be it jail time or "supervised counseling", these kids lives are ruined. In this day and age of Google, with your history following you forever, they'll be plenty punished when they cannot repair their reputations, get into college, or get a job.

I am careful not to conclude "all" regarding anything since you can never be too sure and no, I didn't get that from your post. Just speaking generally and actually had another post in mind.

There is no lack of understanding on my part. I don't even classify what I said as being insensitive. Just like we should not condone kids picking on one another, we should not act as though it is okay to use suicide as a way out. Period.

I was bullied in elementary school. My parents stepped in, but I also got tired of the crap and took matters into my own hands. That was the end of that.

Maybe my parents were more kick-ass but they never completely relinquished control over my outcomes to other adults.

Parents need to remember that they have more of a vested interest in their child's well-being than the school and cops ever do. Don't sit back and wait. That might require going to the school for an early lunch break, putting your child in a self-defense program, or taking the kid to a new school (I wouldn't want my kid in a school full of adult idiots, anyway).

Were their names published? Just wondering, because if not, how will they be punished by their reputation or by not getting a job. If it isn't on their records or in their background checks how will people know them from a can of paint?

That has nothing to do with acting and thinking like an adult.

Be careful not to speak generally and have another post in mind when you're responding to my post. ;)

I was responding to the assertion that ALL people who consider, attempt, and commit suicide are doing so because of mental and/or emotional disorders because suicide is a disease.

We must be reading two different articles. I see nothing that shows the boy manned up. it appears he was just in the locker room and got a wedgie.

Yes, some of their names have been published, I believe 6/9 at the very least.

Ok, then that makes sense. I wasn't sure that they had published names.

When I said he "manned up" I was referring to this:

And the fact that he didn't commit suicide, which in some posts seems to be alluded to as not "manning up".

emergency room wedgie > suicide

I don't see how what you posted contrasts what they were saying regarding strength in any way (I don't agree with the use of "manning up" but I see their general point). The boy is strong with help from his family (the family shouldn't wait for HIS strength to be strong FOR him) and he will get past this painful wedgie. He couldn't get past suicide.

Not only are their names being published, but pictures, and if you google the names, links to numerous discussions of their facebook pages, their families' facebook pages, their athletic accomplishments and stats, their school awards, etc, etc.

In this day and age, once your name is out there in cyberspace, you are forever known, and if what is out there is negative, you will forever be carrying that baggage around.

I'm sure they didn't think of that as they were hurling insults, posting nasty things, and throwing Red Bull cans at her.

"Manning up" isn't about not committing suicide, but about taking appropriate steps to deal with the situation.

No. That's not what I meant about manning up. Sounds like he just took it without standing up for himself.

Absolutely. But, from reading this thread, there are some who have IMO "blamed" the girl who hanged herself for not "manning up". Others have said, and not just in this thread but on other blogs and message boards, that the parents should have done more, but in some cases (like the article I posted and in NUMEROUS websites about bullying) the parents HAVE done everything, short of selling their house and moving to another city, to try to stop the bullying, by going to school administrators and teachers and advising them of the problems, to no avail.

This kid's school supposedly has a "zero tolerance policy" for bullying, but even after the parents had complained, nothing was done. It isn't until someone is actually hurt - as in the torn rectum (it may have been from a wedgie, but geesus, does belittling HOW he ended up having to have his bottom sewed back up somehow make it okay??) that something is done.

In this family's case they took it to the police and the kids were sentenced to "supervised counseling" Obviously, that's not much punishment. I bet those kids laughed out loud when that's what they were told their "punishment" was going to be.

From the article, the expert says:

How is "supervised counseling" punishment to 16 year old boys?:confused:

What's he supposed to do? A group of athletes surround him and do a wedgie so hard it tears his rectum. I would assume they are bigger and stronger than him. Unless he has some super power that can overwhelm them, I'm pretty sure he's at their mercy, and obviously they aren't very merciful.

That's the thing - bullies generally have superior power or influence over those that they are bullying.

If the guy could kick their ass, I doubt they'd be messing with him!!

You shouldn't make such assumptions. Sometimes bullies gain power not because of superiority in size and strength, but simply by using mind games. I've seen kids being bullied by other kids who are the same size.

Being little doesn't mean you are completely helpless.

HE DID!!

He told his parents, the parents went to the school, they tried to get it to stop! What else are the appropriate steps?

Should he have taken a weapon to school and threatened the bullies, because obviously, he couldn't physically intimidate them in any way.

What are these kids supposed to do?

The parents DO have some blame. They weren't aggressive enough. sometimes when issues like this arise, parents have to "show out" in order to see something happen.

I'm not, if you read my post, I said:That's the thing - bullies generally have superior power or influence over those that they are bullying.

If someone is superior intellectually, or socially, they can also bully - that's what you see more often in girl on girl bullying. It's not physical but mental bullying. Read Queen Bees and Wannabes, interesting book on female bullying and adolescent power struggles of girls.

The parents didn't do everything they could do. They knew about it and more could have been done instead of, as I said before, relinquishing their child's outcome to the inadequate adults and stupid children at the school. Another instance of hindsight is 20/20.

If all the parents did was complain and wait, they didn't do nearly enough. I wager that most of these kids have inadequate coping skills because their parents have provided inadequate coping mechanisms. Kids are a reflection of their environments.

If the parents went to the police, that's all well and good but they shouldn't have trusted that the police would follow through? Since when do people trust the police to do more than enforce the law at the surface level? :confused:

I'm not blaming the victims so much as acknowledging personal decisions and encouraging people to do better with their children. We can't predict and control the actions of other kids. We have more control over what happens in our homes in preparation for what our kids may face in this crazy world. Inner city and minority kids have been taught about this crazy world for generations in order to teach about aspirations-and-disappointments as well as to buffer the effects of social strains and mental/emotional disorders. It's about time that other kids are raised to put the rose colored glasses down so they can know what to do when someone says "fuck you."

well said. I especially agree with the part in bold.

What is manning up? Is it talking back to your bully? Is it going to the principal yourself?is it fighting the bully who may be much larger or bring along three friends? I think this discussion of manning up is ridiculous and in most cases does not good or worse may result in the victim getting really hurt. Real life isn't like the movie "Lucas," and joining the football team, taking a few hard hits, and tutoring the dumb jock isn't going to make the scrawny nerd popular.

BTW...there is a big difference between psychological and physical bullying like in the case of the rectal tear kid. As for the girl who committed suicide, it sounds like a mix since the girl punched another girl in the head for talking to a reporter after the girl's death. Also, bringing the parents' actions back into this is irrelevant since this whole discussion of manning up was about teenagers needing to buck up and take care of themselves.

What more could they have done? They went to the school and told administrators their kid was being bullied, the school supposedly has a "zero tolerance" policy for bullying. Short of pulling their kid out, what are they to do?

I can speak from personal experience on this - I went to private school for years (Catholic) and starting in 7th grade, I was bullied - RELENTLESSLY by the group of girls that had been "my friends" for years! They turned on me for some unknown reason and my life became a living hell. Eventually, I was so stressed that I started showing physical signs of depression - started with getting nausious at the thought of going to school, led to a full blown case of Shingles - AT 12!!

My parents went to the principal and complained, they contacted the girls' parents, all to no avail, it was seen as "girls will be girls". I ended up missing so much school that my parents eventually pulled me out and put me at the public school in our neighborhood. THANK GOD we had that option!

anyway, I get these kids cuz I've been there!

Strangely, I am acquainted with alot of these same people (we all come back to the neighborhood), and we've talked about what happened. The women now can't come up with any reason I was singled out, just that I was the popular target for the day, and when they saw that it bothered me, they just kept it up for entertainment. They say that they had no idea that it effected me so badly, and that they are sorry now.

I forgive, but I won't ever forget.

So, I guess at 12, I was expected to have "adequate coping skills" and my parents did a poor job raising me. I'll be sure to let them know.

Yeah mainstream society doesn't give a damn about kids committing suicide, being bullied, having pregnancy pacts, shooting in the schools, wearing revealing prom dresses, etc. until it impacts white kids outside of the inner city public school systems.

They need to be focused on why this is happening beyond focusing on these bullies and acting like life for white kids is supposed to be Heaven--que pasa?! They also need to go beyond attempting to attribute everything to a diagnosable and medication-treatment worthy disorder. This is already an over-diagnosed and over-medicated society. Kids can't even fail a couple of tests (which is hardly a hardcore pattern of behavior) without going to the disabilities services center and getting a documented disorder and potentially going on medication.

/end rant

Definitely let them know because the coping mechanisms they were supposed to provide come BEFORE you develop adequate coping skills. Get the order straight.

And let us know how your talk with your parents turns out.

agreed

I have probably told this story before. Hilarious.

I went to a majority Black high school and we had ESL classes. Some of the dumbass Black boys would pick on the kids from other countries who couldn't speak English. Well, unlike the disabled kids who couldn't fight back, the ESL kids could:

LOL. One day after lunch, the Black boys thought they could call one of the Asian boys who didn't speak English that he was Bruce Lee. So, one particular boy decided to prove them RIGHT and kung fu their asses in the hallway. No one was harmed but it let the bullies know that they aren't picking on some punks just because these students were ESL and most of them were smaller in size.

We all laughed AT the Black boys and no one ever messed with the ESL students again. I don't condone kids fighting back but there are a number of ways to let bullies know that they need to sit down somewhere. Even taking your kid to self-defense classes can boost self-esteem and provide a defense mechanism if need be.