It's not a matter of disagreeing, it's a matter of it not relating to the example or argument I offered. It's like I said "black or white?" and you said "hippo."

This is by far the dumbest fight I have ever had on Greek Chat.

my statement was in response to

i said that carrying the majority of the bags should be done by the man and thus should not apply to the woman.

if this is a fight by your definition, then you need to get out more.

From the Emily Post Institute: The Finer Points of Dating Courtesy—Gender Neutral

"Holding the door: Whoever gets to the door first holds it for others. Getting off an elevator: The person closest to the door exits first.
Helping to put on a coat: Anyone having trouble putting on a coat or sweater should receive some help, regardless of gender.
Paying for a meal: Whoever does the inviting does the paying...
Helping to carry something: A neighbor or coworker—anyone—who is overloaded with books or packages will appreciate an offer of help from whoever is nearby."


There are etiquette rules that don't make presumptions about gender roles. I do agree with them, gender equality means equality in all areas not just when it's advantageous. There's nothing wrong with low key dates, especially the first few, there's way less pressure that way and it doesn't come off as trying to show off. I don't think I've ever paid for a first date, but I've also never asked anyone out on the first date and I always offered to chip in.


How does it work for same-sex couples or any of the alternate non traditional gender identifying couples, do polygamous couples all just split it? I can imagine that would get complicated... :rolleyes:

I've actually read (don't remember where...maybe one of the Mars and Venus books) that men and women differ when it comes to receiving help carrying things. If a woman is struggling to carry something (e.g., multiple bags), another woman sees that as a sign they need help and will probably offer. However, if a man is struggling with multiple bags and a woman offers to help, there's a good chance he'll be offended--he'll see her offering to help as an insinuation that he's not strong enough to handle it. I'm not a guy so I don't know how much truth there is in that.

Exactly. And they see it as blasphemy to do anything that isn't "traditional," even if there are more logical alternatives.

I don't know what the hell starang21 is talking about. LOL. He made my head hurt.

There is truth to that both consciously and subconsciously. We don't need individual men to vouch for something to know what has been found to be the case in research, etc. :)

Your post speaks to my point. Thanks, christiangirl.

Bullshit.

As your friend, I am not shocked that you feel this way and this is why you and I discuss race but rarely discuss gender. :D

Are they shopping bags?

With shoes?

Let's say she buys a purse and it goes into a shopping bag. If he offers to carry the bag for her, is that the same as "holding her purse?" What if the bag is clear (so everyone can see there's a purse in there)?

you never bring it up.

and gender roles do exist. whether or not you believe in them, enough people do to make it reality.

trying to challenge gender roles is all fine and well, but don't get mad when you're stuck with all the bags and your man is carrying a purse.

Especially if it's HIS purse.

at which point some intervention may be needed.

So...now that we are at this point of conversation, are there things that men and women are supposed to do because of their gender?

(Sidebar: When out and about, I walk with my s/o I walk closest to the street side...like my body can withstand the impact of a 2 ton car traveling upwards of 25 mph.)

Things like:

Washing clothes
Household repairs and plumbing
Holding doors open
Cooking (my pet peeve...LOL)
Paying bills and finances

i saw a dude who had a murse on. AND skinny jeans.

i walk to the side closest to the street. i can't stop a car, but i can push her out of the way.

all of those things you listed, either person can do. particularly if they have th know-how. but there are still things that a man should do. like open the door and carry most of the bags. or walk on the street side of the sidewalk.

^^^:eek:

Surprisingly, even with that short list, there are some people that think they are covered by gender specific roles; the man should be able to fix everything, the woman should wash clothes, etc.


You know, while I have no problems at all with cooking, and can do quite a bit myself, I still believe that if a woman wants to attract a man, 2 key things will bring him in, a clean home and good cooking. ;)

I do wash the clothes in my house but that's mostly because I like it, and although live-in does it just fine and also doesn't mind doing it, I have a tendency to freak out because I don't like other people doing my laundry. Laundry was my chore while growing up in my house, dishes were my brother's.

If he can't kill a spider or scrape a frozen dead duck off the deck, then he's useless to me. Other than that, i can do it myself, thanks. (but love assistance and accepts it when offered.. if he's going to do the job RIGHT, which is usually an issue).

And fast forward that 30 years. Her son is so content with his clean home, ironed shirts and never having to cook that he's still living at home with no desire to get married. Have seen it happen, y'all. :) Just stating that it's essential to show your children that men can also (and should also) do these things.

Not only that, it goes both ways. A man who wants to cook for me and does it well gets a pass on one annoying trait (for example, owning Nickleback albums).

I agree it does go both ways. No one should ever rely on someone to do both but some things regardless of how it may come off stereotypically, it shows how well you take care yourself.

Mother always said, if she doesn't keep a clean house, there are other things that aren't clean. *wink*

Nickelback is not forgivable...hehehe

I have asked guys about what they can and can't do, but I have never, ever asked if they can scrape a dead duck off the deck!

I completely agree that both men and women should know basic life skills (cooking, cleaning, laundry, fixing, killing critters, etc). I'm a mean cook, enjoy doing the laundry, but I also have my own power tools. If you give me a long enough fly swatter, I can kill a spider but hate it. But my mother-out-law made such an idol out of cleaning that she grossed me out. That poor woman had no life that didn't include a dust rag or detergent. I believe in tidy, I believe in clean, but an antiseptic house is a sign of illness!

I think that every couple needs to sit down and figure who will do what and how often. And if neither can do something or the other, then how to get it done should be figured out, too.

I always knew why. Now you do, too. ;)

So, you believe gender equality. Good. :p

The man who got me partially brought me in because of two things: a clean home and good cooking.

I REFUSED to bring something to the table (literally and figuratively) that he couldn't. My household is relatively gender neutral so outside of the biological differences, he and I do the same or similar things.

You haven't been reading my last couple of threads....:D

yes, I do believe in a gender equal household because these things don't solve themselves and as I said in another thread, what's the use in delineating something by gender if something happens to me and she won't do it because she 'relied' on me to do it and vice versa?

No sense in being with someone if you don't know how to be by (and do for) yourself, right?

because we disagree? because it isnt due to either one of us having the "right" answer. theres no such thing.

Is that my 2nd favorite Iota?? *faints*

I say do what works for you first, then what works for you as a couple. Compromise is a wonderful thing.

I did all of this in my own apartment (HATED the bolded, can't do it worth a darn but I'll try if I'm desperate). I can change the tires and oil on my car, too. I'd have no problem doing that in a shared household. If he can cook and clean and I could do all the rest, fine by me. I prefer mowing the lawn and taking out the trash over washing dishes any day of the week. If he was okay with that, I'd be in heaven (though chances are I'll find a man who was brought up to believe those are "my" jobs).
I met a man wearing a Coach purse, matching hat, and acrylic nails (which were yellowed from improper maintenance). I took pictures when his back was turned.

The dead duck story is in the TMI thread in ChitChat :) It only came to be an issue in very recent times! I ended up paying my 13 year old son to do it and even then, had to convince him "Man up! You're almost 14, you can do this! I'll pay you!"

I agree on your other points completely. I also have power tools and can mitre a corner on molding like nobody's business. I hate clutter and clean regularly, but it's a lived in house nonetheless. I just want things to be where they are supposed to be. I hate having to look for stuff when it should be "in it's place". I had to learn to kill spiders when my kids were little and I became single. I have to protect the children from those evil things, but I hate it. They no longer paralyze me though. Killing them is a necessity because the alternative (letting them wander around the house) is NOT an option!

QFT! Although, I can accept that different people are skilled at different things. It shouldn't be based on gender, but on individual strengths. If a man can't cook, I could live with that, as long as he can wash dishes or do something else that I hate/can't do. And, I cannot tolerate clutter so he had better be able to get clothes into the hamper and clean his frickin whiskers out of the sink. And if he leaves all the cupboard/dresser doors and drawers open, it's a deal breaker!

i see i need to step it up, huh?

LOL - I'll have to read about that! There's a feral cat colony near my house (and yes, I'm guilty of feeding three of them), so I doubt that a dead duck would have the time to freeze to anything before it became dinner.

THIS

Dating
 

I think this boils down to gender typing in the society that we live in. Most women, not all but most, like being taken care of on the first date. This goes back to age old tradition where the male is the breadwinner. Psychologically, most pairs attract for looks, compatibility and knowing that the male is financially capable of supporting/nourishing his mate. It may not always apply to current practice, belief or philosophy but it's merely a tradition. I always offered my wallet, whether cheap or expensive, to my past dates when we first started going out. Most of those dates resulted in the girl being very appreciate. I say most because I also dated the side that never said thank you and expected to be placed on a pedal stool (daddy's little princess). Most of those dates ended quickly but at the time the eye candy pleased my fraternity brothers so it was all good.

Ok, I'm sorry, but I have to ask... what is a pedal stool? LOL

I know someone who published a book and she did this. I wanted to say "Who the heck was your editor???" lol

Dating
 

Oops - I meant to say Pedestal. :)

I have two brothers. I was not raised with the "I should be treated like a queen because that's what I am" fallacy being drilled into my head. My parents taught me a good relationship should consist of two people who offer each other respect, kindness, and compassion. One shouldn't be treated better than the other. I think the party that invites the other on the date should pay. If I ask a guy on a date (which I haven't done yet, but I would if the situation arose) I should pay. If he asks me, he should. But when I have a boyfriend we always split. I'll buy the tickets to the movie and he buys the refreshments or vice versa, for example. That way it all evens out in the end. A guy can't be expected to be in a relationship and finance every activity. I always tell a guy when they offer that I appreciate it, but I would like to contribute, too. I've never had a refusal on that offer.;) Recession or no, it's always polite to offer.

take a shot every time DaemonSeid says "age old."

You mean a man bag? I always though murse referred to a male nurse.

On the 1st and 2nd date maybe.. I think it would also be an insult for both parties if the girls insist on paying on dates.. But she can also compensate.. like she can cook for the boyfriend, of insist taht they go to places that are not too pricey.

My co-worker was telling me the other day about a man who is a friend of hers (she used to hope it would become more) who has been in a long term relationship with a woman for about 3 years now. They don't live together, but the woman does spend the weekend at his house sometimes. He gives her a monthly bill to cover his resources that she has used (showers, meals, etc) when she stays with him for a weekend. Psycho!

:eek::eek::eek:
She's stupid for staying with him. What a jerk.

My boyfriend is pretty old-fashioned when it comes to finances. He wants to pay for everything! Which is great, but it makes me feel bad because I'm the one with a full-time job now, and he's going into his 5th year of college. So I have to insist on paying sometimes. And he's always so grateful :)

However, when it comes to driving (He lives 30 minutes away, and it's an hour if he's at school), he likes it when I visit him so he's not driving all the time.
And my dad is the opposite and says he's the man so he should be visiting me & driving me everywhere :) I love my men.

He's lucky you feel like that. It always drives me crazy when I'm in a relationship and they still want to pay for everything. I feel too guilty to let that happen.

It's nice he doesn't insist on driving all the time...what is it with men and wanting to be the driver?