Your right, UMGirl- it does have Bill Mahr written all over it- and you know what he got for it?
He got pulled from three major networks until he apologized for it. And apologize he did.


Jess

Yes...which many ppl take for granted...do you know that there are countries in the world that will execute for treason even if it isn't in a time of war? More or less to say..anything that is negatively said about the gov't could ultimately result in prison or death.
We have the luxury to speak our thoughts..others in other countries do not.

d

The Point to my Thread
by Arya

This thread is to show people that beside how we as American feel, there are another side to how people felt. Bin Ladin came into prominance in various steps. The first step was his financial support for the Mujahidin. And let us clear on thing, bin Ladin was never the warrior he claimed to be. Records showed that he was a fund raiser. Probably fired a round at a can. He was the money man, nothing more, nothing less. But he was also very charismatic and very well educated. This gave him prominance as a "freedom fighter" after the Soviet got their ass kicked.

The second steps of his comming to being is after the Iraqi invasion. He had a legitimate quarell about having a foreign military in the soil of a holy land. It is debatle if he is right or wrong. At this point, he started to railled against the American presence in the holy land. Now if he was in a democratically elected government, he could put point his view through the parliment or whatever it is they called it. Seeing that it's an autocratic state, he was silenced. That probably made him into what he is today. well let us fast forward a little.

Approximately two years ago, the Sudan government, wishing to be out of our list of states that sponsored terrorism, offered to extradite bin Ladin to us for the embassy bombing. This is where it gets interesting, the FBI wanted him, but the States Department did not. This is the first failiure of our government that lead to the tragic event. Second step was when the French, Israelist and the Phillipines warned the CIA of an imminent attack on our soil. It was ignored. Second failiure of our government. Third failure is the fact that most of this "agents" came into our country with their real name. Yet, they were able to get a visa.

I'm probably confusing the hell out of you and are probably asking "Arya, what does this have to do with the thread." Well, I'll get to the point now. Our government has done many many bad thing in the past. Prop up dictators such as SUharto, Pinochete, Hussein, the Shah of Iran, etc. Using the defitnition given by our leader, the government could be accused of being a terrorist state. But I would disagree because a terrorist directly attack the innocent. So why does many people hate our government. Here I would like to seperate between their hatred of our government and the relation to them and us. I've been to Iran and I could tell you that they wouldn't care less. They do remmember our action, but doesn't hate me as an American. The thread is to show how people could feel that bin Ladin was justified. It is not to argued if that feeling is right or wrong. Just like we may think that it is wrong to feel that way, they too could feel that how we think about the bombing is wrong. Hope that clears up.

I am not worried dude.:) I am just glad I am not the mod of this forum.

My guess is that if it isnt gone by now.....probably not going ;)

Yeah what the hell was I thinking standing on a soapbox trying to rally a bunch of liberals behind me to help defend against anything anti american. I must be crazy. Comparable to hippies of the 60's debating political issues while cranked out of their minds on acid?

I dont give two shits wether or not America is right or wrong, when the decision is passed to go to war. The ONLY thing that matters to me is that I am an AMERICAN, and I will be until the day I die, so by God when we go to war it dont matter a damn to me who is right and who is wrong, only that we win. Call me what you will but youll never call me a tree hugging hippie commie bastard. I dont have to use my education here and debate. I can continue to be a redneck just so long as I bleed red, white, and blue.

I too retract my comment of leaving. Sorry I was at lunch and wasnt able to do it sooner. You guys can stoke up the Dave Mathews albums and pour a nice hot cafe latte and enjoy your debate. Me, I'm gonna continue to be me. And I will be damned if I need to justify the actions of my country to anyone.

P.S. Bill Maher or whatever is another damn liberal that needs to be shipped off somewhere where only he, and his Democrat cronnies can sit and bash the policy makers that keep him and his family safe at night.

I don't see any reason why this thread should be closed. Plenty of other offensive posts have remained. If we can discuss this as adults, rather than result to flaimng and name-calling, I believe this could be a productive discussion.

"I may not agree with a word you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."--Voltaire''

Now my opinion on the attacks themselves:

Terrorism has been going on for YEARS back by Bin Laden. Each time the USA has been a victim of a strike, we have arrested a few individuals and then let the rest go, seeking diplomatic solutions. The original WTC bombing in 1995 and subsequent attacks on US Embassies in Africa attest to this.

The people we are up against will not settle for diplomatic solutions. We want them to stop attacking us, they want nothing from us. You can't bargain if you have nothing to offer.

Therefore, the only thing left to do is detroy their ability to continue these attacks in any way we know how. If that means civilian deaths, it is unfortunate, but there is no other option.

And finally, my most controversial opinion for which I will certainly get attacked:

We are at war. It is the nature of war that it leads to casualties. So who should be the first to go? A starving, opressed woman in Afghanistan, or a productive member of American society. I am not trying to say that you can place value on a life or judge someone in that manner, but why are we worried about Afghan citizens at the expense of our own? Why is it a crime to kill Afghan civilians, yet not a crime to leave ourselves open to attack? Isn't is just as much a crime if the government allows Americans to be sacrificed?

Like I said, my opinions are not popular, but I try to present them in an appropriate manner.

Billy Mac, I humbly extend my hand of friendship to you. I may disagree, but I respect your independence.

I respect everyones opinions on here because everyone has a right to opinion.

Accepted. I dont really think that it is the Taliban that we greekchaters are against, but the coons ransacking Lil G's garbage. We let our anger get channeled in the wrong direction.

I also would like to extend my friendship not only to BillyMac, but everyone who I respect.

Agree, we should go after the pest

I agree, racoons need to stay out of our yards.

I want more raccoon pics. That was pretty entertaining.

Let's not get into liberal-bashing mode over this - I consider myself a liberal, and I back the bombings 100%, as well as think that Bush and his advisors have made the right moves so far. So please, don't make this into a "why I hate liberals" post.

can you imagine what would have happened if any others up for election had become president. Bush and his staff have done AWESOME

i dont think closing/deleting the thread is the right way to go. People are just expressing their opinions and thoughts. I dont think anyone is "attacking" or insulting anyone.

Just because you dont agree with what someone posted is not a reason to leave the boards or give the moderators an ultimatum "either you close it or I leave". So, i am not going to close the thread- if it gets out of hand, then thats another thing- but so far, i think its okay.

Thanks for dropping by bucutie. This thread got jacked up four pages like two hours ago so your a little late.

Youll close threads when other people request it, why not me? Even though thats not the point anymore. I have you seen you tripping over your own two feet to close threads before so please lets not go there. Frankly, you werent the moderator I was turning to.

I wasnt giving you an ultimatum.

We would probably be fine without the commie remarks, and sarcasm towards liberals

Hrmmm . . ..
 

Wow, you all became so nice to eachother so quickly!

A lot of the statements made in Ary's original message are not wrong and are certainly legitimate ways to look at some of the US's actions and intentions.

I understand people's need to keep anger at a high pitch so that we can perpetuate the feeling of crisis long enough to follow through on military action.

I find it peculiar that people need strong emotion: anger/rage to do what needs to be done. Because anger and rage cloud intellegent thinking/planning and allow you to be manipulated. Its a weakenss I certainly don't encourage in my self. But its certainly a weakness that will let me go on to greater success than I would probably otherwise achieve if people were better thinkers. When I meet people like that I mentally thank them and every time I shake their hand I hear mental cash register sounds.

So to me the point is simple: We want to stop our enemy from attacking us and hurting us. The easiest way to do this is to kill the enemy, destroy his/her support system, and decimate the population that the enemy draws his people from.

I am not mad about it, I just think its common sense. But hey, some people need the raw raw and drama.

If that means depopulating the entire region, going after their loved ones first and making painful examples of them, or whatever, then so be it.

I am not saying we are right or wrong ethically, or righteous or not righteous morally, those kind of questions complicate my simple mind. I make no pretense towards any degree of intellegence or sophistication, so to me its a simple matter of Us against Them. And I support Us. That removes a lot of the philosophy behind it and reduces it to how best to remove them. Operational versus theoretical.

I am glad that some of you stepped back from the pissing contest that the thread was becomeing although I had some really cool viscious comments that I was going to make at your expenses. But at least the moderators no longer have to judge who's dicks were bigger . . . sorry had to slip at least one comment in:)

As far as the US miltary goes, we have come so far in the ten years since the gulf war that we have amazing weapons of destruction. Its probbaly good for us, we can now kill more people from farther away than ever before. It will be less scarring on our own soliders because they won't for the most part SEE who they are killing or even have to watch them die. A Great Uncle served in the German Army during WWII at 14 on the Eastern Front, a russian jumed into his hole and hesitate seeing a little kid, my uncle didn't and bayoneted him . . it took the russian a while to die . . . messed my Uncle up good for life in some ways. Killing up close with a blade is personal. Killing someone after pushing a button is something you can have a beer over later. Very good for us, and bad for our enemies . . . until their technology catches up.

So let us by all means discuss this intellegently and rationally. Let us all means acknowledge the shortcomings of our politicians, their polices and its effect on the United States. And let us by all means be scathing and critical of them. We were before and they haven't suddenly changed into saints. IT sounds like a great happy hour discussion over a few shots of tequilla/jack daniels, and rum and diet's, my drinks of choice.

And then afterwards let us coldly and dissapassionately kill our enemies, burn their villages, and raze their crops to the ground.

PS. From what I understand Bill Maher's comments were taken highly out of context in the raw raw days after the attack . . . he probably should have known they were going to eviscerate him but they were not the way they were made out to be.

PPS. KsigRc, probably Gor's reactions would have been similar, he would have had good people also working for him, but he may not have been as likely to immediately start thinkin of legislation to limit certain civil rights on the domesticate side . . but who knows there is a lot of pressure right now to be restrictive.

Ok everyone get on the wagon to bash me for the commie and liberal remarks. I was just calling the kettle black. If everyone is entitled to the opinion of the U.S. and Taliban being similar in many ways, I am allowed to make observances to liberals also. True?

true :D

James if the cool vicious comments were going to be directed towards me then by all means, let them fly.

I do not regret not having a passive approach to responding to things that strike my patriotic nerve. Cash registers clanging or not, it boils down to who was gonna step up and say they didnt approve of such crap being debated here. My drive to lunch this afternoon gave me time enough to cool off and think that liberalism is sweeping through society (no greater example of this than the "context" of prime time shows since clinton took office) and it would be near to impossible to argue such issues here.

I'm patriotic. I'm not sorry. I will choose my debating audience more wisely next time. Sometimes its not easy to subdue my passions.

I second that, IH!
I don't agree with a lot of stuff that is posted on GC, but I don't pitch tantrums or give ultimatums. EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE should have the RIGHT to express their thoughts! We may not agree with them, but too bad!

Billy,

Got no problem with your patriotism. The Flag is flying in front of my house as I type this.

I do have a problem with name calling. Since you've never met us personally, know our voting record, morals or ideology, I resent being painted with labels like liberal, democrat, commie, etc.

I'm none of the above.

I'm also not republican, conservative or agnostic.

I'm a child of the 60's, but was not a hippie and never tried acid.

I learn a lot more about issues by listening to well thought out, measured arguments.

I suspect a lot of us feel that way.

I am interested in your opinions -- I just won't be categorized by anyone using sweeping generalizations and trigger words.

I'm glad things are calming down.

DeltAlum

In term of social issue, I'm a libetarian, would not care less what you do. Economic issue, I'm more or less a Keynsian tilted toward structuralist. I'm not a marxist nor a pure liberal. BTW, the current economic system is a pure liberal, though it seem my good friend Keynes is comming back because of the Asian Financial Crisis.

Being a commie means one adhere to the Marxian economic view of the world. I actually criticized Marxian outlook as naive and unrealistic because of the current structural order. Although there are some point made by Marxian that I do belief in, such as the dependence theory. However, I believe in the market system. Just like Keyne, I also believe that the market are sometime irrational and need government intervention. That is another conversation.

Commie= generalization as to unpatriotic. Slang. Used comonly during the cold war. I.E. Anyone that wasnt with us was a commie. Communism looks good on paper, doesnt work too well though. Commie seemed to touch off a charge so I guess if a thread like this comes up again I will have to find another trigger word.

Delt, cant deny that you were a child of the 60's. Were you of the make love, not war movement? That generalization was directed towards people that were unsupportive of the countless numbers of men and women who fought and died in Vietnam that fought to stop Communism, when Vietnam was not a powerhouse persay, of the Communist population at the time. Although I myself was born in 76, still as a history buff, it troubles me that some people of this era were unsupportive of our people fighting and giving their lives for democracy, and better yet, the United States. The French started it, we tried to end it. Right or wrong, seems to me that anytime our people are fighting and dying, no matter what the reason, we all should show a little support.

I thought this was all dead but now it still rears its ugly head so I guess I have to stand behind what I said, which I will. My point, without trigger words and cheapshots,(like that email wasnt full of cheapshots) was to stand up for patriotism.

Terrorism to them is an honorable death (i.e. Japanese Kamakazes) to Us it is a cowards way of killing many people.

I still dont like that post. Didnt like the way it started, didnt like the way it ended. Not gonna like it. Debateable? After consideration who am I to say that you cant debate it. Debate away. I even said in my intial response that I couldnt fathom thinking that any thread should be locked. But hey, we have locked em for much more silly and trivial things. Anyone that can deny that please see all the emails that have been locked for someone not doing a search.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I am a conservative. Thats me. Closed minded when it comes to things of this manner. Just didnt want our board splattered with a bunch of crap about how the US didnt support this that and the other during such and such a year.

Well, i didnt even see this thread until today because i wasnt able to log on to GC yesterday, thats why my post came so late.

Last time i closed a thread was because the person who started it requested to close it, technically she could have done it herself but didnt know how to. The person who starts a thread has the right to close it if he/she wishes to. Just because you dont like the thread period, doesnt cause for it to be closed. When i posted my post, i didnt see anything wrong with it. Freedom of speech!

Just because you are upset that this thread isnt closed or whatever your problem is, doesnt cause for you to be rude to me and say that I wasnt the moderator you were turning to. Zetace and I have been really busy and havent had time to log onto GC so many times in the day. I talked to her about earlier and she didnt even know about it, so I thought i would post to let everyone know that the thread would remain open.

Liberals
 

I am a self-proclaimed liberal. I have never voted for a republican. I vote nearly a straight-ticket democrat at every election, with the exception of some independents who hop on the ballot.

That said, I support every action taken right now by Bush's administration. We can't continue to try and bargain with these people.

Was WWII not a good enough lesson on the dangers of appeasement?

I didnt even mean for it to come out that way. I guess I just choose the wrong word.

On a much needed lighter note.... The front page of The Onion this week makes fun of the same thing as Arya's post:

http://www.theonion.com/onion3738/pr..._children.html

I don't think this should be about bashing "liberals". I am a democrat. I always vote for the democratic party. But, with this whole disaster, I support the war on terrorism 100%. I think you'll find that many of the liberals feel the same way as me.

I don't know where to start...
This thread looks like a bunch of children arguing over the right way to play a game. When one didn't get his/her way, s/he went to pout on the other side of the room & said "you're not my best friend anymore." When mommy decided to let the kids work out their own problems, she got lip from the children. Sad, seeing that we're all adults here.
If we all stop posting on this thread & post on others, this one will drop off & we won't argue anymore.
Heidi

I have to agree here with HeidiHo, I took the time to read each and everyone's post. Although, I don't agree with a good deal of you, thats my opinion vs your opinion and I am not about to take that away from any of you, cause we are all entitled to our own opinions, although it seems many of you have forgotten that!
As for the thread being closed... Why? If you can't handle the heat then stay out of the kitchen. Just because people are actualy voicing their opinions and catching a little attitude. why wouldn't they. Theres name calling, it's politics and the Spetember 11th and the solutions are a touchy subject. So if you can't battle with the rest of them , simply move on.
Back to the subject at hand. James had some valid points in his post. Obviously the US will do what they feel is best for the safety of the nation and to produce the means of Justice in the attack of September 11th.
As for somone stating something about the military, yes the US military has the best of the best technology and equipment. They use it to do what they have to do. They fight because they have to, because it's there job.They don't choose to fight.They personally don't wake up and say hey you know what I feel like bombing a small country. They do what they have to , to protect and serve their country and it's people.Just like anyone else's military.
Kabillymac, I understand where you are coming from, you obviously feel very strong about the matter and who wouldn't. Our freedom was questioned, our theories challenged . I agree with what you had to say as well. Yes as an American I am all for patriotism.But you all have to realize just cause we are American , not every American is going to jump on the I agree 100% with the US on how things are being carryed out . All we can ask for really, is that hate stops and that all of this is put to an end!
So maybe we can move past this. As a person, a greek, a moderator, a female, a sister, a friend I respect you all and your views and opinions no matter what is said~
DGPhoney~