I apologize in advance for the novel, but here are some thoughts.

I think that targeting people with a BMI over 30 is ridiculous and they should either make everybody take the class or have nobody take that.

With that being said, there are so many excuses in this thread that I can't take it anymore.

First, yes you can be skinny and unhealthy. But you cannot have a BMI of 30 (except for a negligible percentage of world class athletes) and call yourself healthy. There is no way.

I understand the limitations of the BMI system. For example, my brothers lift weights frequently and their BMI likely says they are more overweight than they are in reality. But that is not a difference of more than a couple digits.

I am really frustrated with the commonplace American rhetoric that IMPLIES (not SAYS, so save the counter-argument) that because some skinny people are malnourished that it is just as good to be obese. It is ridiculous! Sure there are some people out there who have super-metabolisms who can eat junk all day and stay skinny. But let's be honest, how big is that percentage really? And how many stay that way after their late teens/early twenties?

The other common argument is even more ridiculous: the statement that some people with low BMIs have eating disorders so that is just as unhealthy. Sure, a girl who has a low BMI because of an eating disorder is unhealthy, but if you have to use that as a foil for your obese BMI then you should already realize this hurts your argument more than it helps. Plus the BMI system ACCOUNTS for people who have "too low" of a BMI. It certainly does not claim they are healthy.

The truth of the matter is that after a certain age, the majority of people whose BMIs fall into the "healthy" range really ARE healthy. They eat well and they exercise. And guess what? By using portion control and restraint you can have an incredible body and skip a couple days of working out, eat a large french fries every now and then, etc. Since the rest of their habits are healthy, they can afford to indulge occasionally.

Sure, there is a genetic component to weight, and certain health issues can cause you to pack it on, but once you are reaching a BMI of 30??? You are playing yourself if you are telling yourself that is healthy.

There is a difference between self-acceptance and healthy. If you have no problems being obese and can accept yourself for it, that is fine. I understand that there is a lot of unhealthy pressure (especially against girls) to look a certain way. However you do have to understand that it is NOT healthy. Please do not tear down the accomplishments of being who try to be healthy so that they can live longer (scientifically proven) and live a healthier life.

The original case, though, is just another instance of an implicit statement that you're too stupid to know what's right, and I (in this case, faculty and/or administration) will play the "for your own good" card.

This is NOT the way to teach people to make decisions, accept responsibility, and abide by consequences.

Core credits usually make you take A lit course, A science course, etc. There's a lot of wiggle room and you can find at least one thing you don't hate.

I just don't understand what physical fitness has to do with attaining a college degree, unless it IS your degree. The fact of the matter is, it's targeting all the wrong people, at the wrong age. Like I said, I'm sure my BMI was far below 30 in college. It's certainly not because I ate in a healthy manner or exercised - it was sheer luck and/or heredity. What usually happens is once you hit 35 or so, even if you were rail thin, your metabolism goes into the toilet and you gain weight. I wish I would have gotten more used to having to work out, etc when I was younger so I'd be better at it now. Not that I think the college should have taught me that, just saying that I wouldn't be a "target" for this class at age 21, but I might be now.

And I'm sure there are people who are overweight in college who once they get out of school, lose the weight. Keep in mind, there are guys who are STILL growing till around age 25.

I think the course in general is a waste of time, but if one person has to take it everyone should.

How is "Healthiness/Exercise for BMI Over 30" targeting the wrong people? Look - the hereditary argument is moot. If you were "naturally" skinny, then you had to do less work at that age - you were at a natural advantage. This means that YOU DID NOT NEED the class - others, who had a natural disadvantage, DID. This is, like, the most obvious thing ever when separated from the stigma of (apparently) calling women fat.

Also the "ALL OR NONE" thing is unreal - I passed out of every single f-ing prereq at my school based on AP scores. That's no different than having an absurdly athletic BMI is it? Jesus Lord.

Then what does it have to do with finishing middle school or getting a high school diploma?

I think saying there's no point in it unless it is your degree is a pretty narrow view of what a college education is supposed to be about.

This latter part I agree with. I heard an interview with someone from Lincoln (it may have been DeBoy) a week or two ago, and he made a big deal about part of the impetus for this requirement being the problem of obescity among African-Americans, which can lead to other health problems (heart issues, diabetes, etc.). He was laying it out as an HBCU's responsibility to the African-American community, but if that's the reasoning behind it, then it seems everybody should have to take the class, because it's not just about your own health and making good choices for yourself -- it's also about the health of those around you and how you can support healthy choices by others.

Actually, it's completely different. No one looked at you and said "gee, he *looks* smart enough, let's decide that he doesn't have to take this class because of his appearance." Nope. They took some objective measure of your intellect and determined that you had the requisite knowledge such that you could skip the entry level course.

Just because someone is overweight does not mean they are uneducated about health and fitness.

Again - Just because someone is overweight does not mean they are uneducated about health and fitness. If this class is meant to teach people, then it should be targeted towards those who are uneducated. Yes, there is a chance that most 30+ BMI people need the education. But I guarantee you that not all of them do. Sometimes overweight people have an incredible wealth of knowledge about health and fitness, they simply do not have it in them to apply that knowledge.

The problem here isn't that they have the class. The problem is that the way you "test" out of it is subjective. It has nothing to do with knowledge. And shouldn't it? Shouldn't you only be able to test out of a class if you can demonstrate that you already have that level of knowledge?

What would be so wrong about saying that everyone has to take the class, and if they want to avoid taking it they can test out of it? Not by proving they are thin enough, but by proving they are knowledgeable enough?

No, it's very different. You took a test and passed out of it - you showed your knowledge. It wasn't based on a number whose usefulness is debated even within the medical community.

I mean, if you want to determine if people are physically fit, give them a freaking physical fitness test - don't just look at their BMI. And even then, as I said, it should be all or nothing. And even then, I'm sorry, but I just don't think this has anything to do with college.

Elementary school and high school are different than college. Period. They're paid for by the taxpayers and are teaching much younger children.

That's another thing. What about returning students? As I said, when you get older your metabolism goes. It's discriminatory to older students.

I had typed a response to all this and lost it. Sooooo... in a nutshell:

I have to agree with KSigRC on this. Having below 30 BMI = testing out, IMO. Sure, BMI may not be the best test, but it's black & white and easy to figure. I can see why they chose BMI as the determining factor.

Regarding pbear's and 33girl's statements about knowledge, I don't think knowledge is always enough. And I think that's consistent with the ultimate goal of institutions of higher learning. Having knowledge about healthy lifestyles isn't enough to keep you from being obese. It'd be like a smoker telling an insurance company that his premiums should be that of a non-smoker's since he knows the dangers of smoking. Knowledge needs to be put into action if it's really to mean anything.

Hmm. So you think that it's appropriate to force a 100-level course on a 30+ BMI person who knows everything there is to know about health and fitness, but who has a psychological barrier from putting that knowledge into action? Just because of their psychological issues? What exactly is that class going to teach them?

It is a very REAL fact that many people who are overweight are overweight because of emotional/psychological issues. A basic health class in college isn't going to fix that, and in some cases it makes it worse. To single them out for their weight, in spite of their level of knowledge, could very well exacerbate the underlying issues.

As for the analogy of the smoker and his insurance premiums, I'm completely lost on how that is even remotely similar to this situation. I don't think anyone is saying the 30+ BMI person is healthy. It's just that a college course should be about disseminating knowledge. And BMI is NOT a measure of knowledge.

So are many colleges, at least in part -- sometimes quite a large part.

I just don't see any problem at all with a college requiring a physical education/health component for all baccalaureate degrees. I'd say historically, it has been the rule rather than the exception.

I do quibble with (okay, laugh at) what has sometimes passed for phys ed/health at many colleges and universities, and I think Lincoln has gone about it all wrong, but I think a college education is about more than just getting a degree so you can go forth and work. College should be much more than an expensive training school.

I absolutely agree that many people who are overweight have psychological issues. While a health/PE class won't fix those issues, it will, perhaps, get the student moving more. Which, ideally, could reduce that student's BMI.

@ bolded: To an extent, yes, college courses should aim to produce knowledge. However, simply having knowledge about something isn't always enough. The smoking analogy was meant to convey that. A smoker may know the dangers of smoking (much like someone with a BMI over 30 may know the dangers of obesity), but until action is taken (i.e. quitting smoking, or losing weight), what good is that knowledge?

I took a 100-level health course in college because it was required of all students. I can't honestly say that I learned anything, but it wasn't a bad thing to have to take it.

Something else I just thought of: It's really short-sighted to single out the high-BMI students for this class for another reason. How many of the <30 BMI crowd know next to nothing about how to eat healthy because they are young and have never had to worry about it? What happens to them in 5 or 10 years when life suddenly catches up with them? Wouldn't it be a good idea to give them the skills and knowledge now so that they understand their unhealthy habits aren't going to fly in a few years? Or does the administration of the university just assume that those who are relatively thin now will always be like that? Heh. I can see how an 18 year old would think that. But I would have thought a college administrator would know better. Sometimes the people who have the worst health problems down the line are the ones who are thin and can eat any kind of junk they want when they are young, so they never learn the difference.

If the university really cared about its students, all students would be required to take the course.

@Sydney - Sounds like you are making the assumption that anyone with a 30+ BMI is inactive. There are a *lot* of overweight people who are quite active. Ever heard of the Athena and Clydesdale classes in running?

Nope. Not making that assumption at all. I'm sure there are people who have a high BMI who are active. But, if I were a betting person, I'd put money on 30+ BMI people, as a whole, being less active than below 30 BMI.

Question for anyone who is ok with the class being just for the 30+ BMI crowd:

Why do you think the university should not require this course of every student? Do you think that the "thin" students have nothing to learn, and are never going to be at risk of gaining weight? Do you genuinely think that the "thin" students are healthy, and have sufficient knowledge about health and fitness? Or is there some other reason?

I'm just really curious why the course shouldn't be required of everyone.

Honestly, I see it just as testing out. Students with below 30 BMI are exempt from the class just like, for example, students who score 36 in Math on the ACT are exempt from having to take College Algebra.

So they have the appropriate level of knowledge in health and fitness, because of their weight?

I guess I just can't see the logic in that. I've worked as a personal trainer and some of my thin clients were the least educated about health and fitness. They just took for granted they could eat whatever they wanted and get by because they'd always been thin. Then they started having health problems, or they got older and the weight surprised them, and they had no idea what to do about it. Whereas some of my overweight clients had all the knowledge in the world, but just couldn't get past their own barriers that kept them from applying it.

(And, for the record, my BMI is not 30+, lest anyone think I'm taking this too personally.)

ETA - I think I've just known way too many <30 BMI people who are extraordinarily uneducated about health to be unbiased about this one. There are *so* many people who are, for lack of a better word, just stupid about health, but outwardly appear to be healthy. I've got thin friends on more cholesterol meds than you would believe, thin friends who will down 10 sodas a day, thin friends who eat nothing but grease and junk... And some of them honestly believe they are healthy, even though their doctors would argue the point. But society tells them they are healthy because they aren't overweight.

Look, everyone gets that BMI is not a perfect test, but we're vastly overstating the degree to which it is disputed - it's sort of a classic "so many people think it is overrated that it's actually now underrated" problem. As a baseline measurement, it is as effective or more effective than nearly any other test you can administer quickly and non-invasively, as far as I know (and I'll readily admit to being no expert).

Being skinny is not specific evidence of "knowing all there is to know" about being healthy, but it is evidence of maintaining a healthy weight and body fat ratio. Being obese, however, is certainly specific evidence of being unhealthy - hence why the class is correctly targeted.

There is a perfectly valid argument that the course could do the most benefit if everyone took it, but as currently posed, I don't really see how the school's logic fails.

Thank you.

Aside from the "Is BMI a good measure of overall fitness?", I have a question for those who have been in college more recently than I. Have college campuses started serving healthier foods in their cafeterias? I ask because, I started college at a "healthy" weight by current BMI standards (although I thought I was hugely obese, which is another story altogether). Given that the only really edible foods in the cafeteria were the desserts, which they placed at the beginning of the food line and very high fat entrees and lots of carbs, it was very hard to maintain a proper weight. The vegetables were all canned and cooked to mushiness (ick) and the salad bar consisted of wilted iceberg lettuce, tomatoes, cheese, onions, bacon bits and croutons. There were no fat free salad dressings back then. Between that, the beer, the pizza, and the food at the only other place you could use your meal card (nachos, hot dogs, burgers, fries), I gained 40 pounds my freshman year, putting me 2 pounds over the BMI of 30. I went home that summer, lost the 40 pounds and went back to school my sophomore year and put them right back on. I went home again and lost it again... So, I'm curious, since our society is, in general, much more health conscious, are healthy choices offered now?

That very question was asked of the Lincoln official in the interview I heard. He basically said that they can't afford to serve healthier food.

Yeah.

We had a lot of options. Even just in the cafeteria we had a huge sandwich choice, pasta choices, stir fry, NICE salad bar, hamburgers, fries, and an area that changed their choices daily. We also had a lot more options in the union. The only problem was a lot of stuff was fried. And I always chose hamburgers and fries. Seriously every weekday for a whole year I had hamburgers and fries for lunch, it's amazing I still eat them :p

I can only speak for where I went to college, and I can say, yes, they were much healthier than they could have been. We had a pretty intense salad bar, lots of fruit (we were permitted to take one piece out) and different healthy eating options for vegans and vegetarians. You were only required to be on the meal plan for the first year, but most people stayed on it as long as they lived on-campus.

I looked, and this is what they're offering for dinner at one dining hall tonight:

Lemon Broiled Chicken
Pasta Spinach Casserole
Rosemary Potatoes
Rabe
Braised Cauliflower
Italian Bread
Black & White Pudding Cake

Stir Fry Station
Fried Rice Bowl with Ham
Fried Rice Bowl with Edamame
Vegetable Egg Rolls

Pasta Bar
penne
meatless sauce
napolitana sauce

Like I mentioned before, we always had a salad bar and fruit, as well as a baked potato bar, brown rice and white rice. I eat much healthier now, but this doesn't seem too bad! (Except fried rice with ham sounds weird.)

My brother is a master personal trainer and he repeatedly tells people that it's often the skinniest people that come to him that are the most unfit. They have no muscle. At least when a person is heavy, they tend to still have lots of muscle because the body has had to carry all of their weight around. You want to know who he says tend to have the worst muscle:fat ratio out of all the people he trains? Asian women. He calls it "skinny fat."

Wow, this would really piss me off if I was a student at that school. Talk about not putting your money where your mouth is!

The absurdity in that is that the real difference between healthy food and unhealthy food is how it is prepared. It's not a huge price difference to substitute apple sauce for oil in a cake, for example. It might be a little more pricey to use egg beaters instead of eggs. In my grocery store though, a bottle of dressing of one brand is the same price whether it's fat free or not. Same with sour cream. Are beans truly more expensive than meat? I don't think so. It's not any cheaper to serve fried chicken than broiled, or grilled or broiled burgers instead of fried. It takes a little water to rinse off your beef when you are making taco meat, reducing the fat tremendously. Since I've been making a point to eat healthier foods, I spend less money, truth be told.

Double posting here, but this thread has had me thinking, about my own weight issues, my thoughts in college, etc. I actually think a rule like this would have helped me a lot. As I noted earlier, when I started college I weighed 130 so my BMI was about 24, within the normal range. At that time, I thought I was the most hugely obese woman on campus. My perception was that I was the biggest girl in my chapter. I gained 40 pounds my freshman year, as also noted above and then went home, joined Weight Watchers for the summer and lost it again. The same thing happened sophomore year. I didn't go home again after that and didn't lose the weight I put on junior year or senior year, but I didn't gain any more than that either. I would have been 1-2 pounds away from that BMI requirement. Around the time I graduated, I thought to myself "I'm huge no matter what I do so I'm going to stop fighting my weight and just do what I want". That's when I really packed on the weight.

When I look at pictures of my chapter now, I think "Wow, was my body image messed up or what?" I was gorgeous. I had an amazing body. I had no idea. I have often wondered whether, had my body image been more accurate, I would have ever let it get out of control like I did in later years. My highest non-pregnancy weight ever was 270. It's shocking to me that I ever let it get that bad, but in my head, at 130, I thought I looked just as bad as I actually did look at 270. My weight has been all over the place since that highest weight ever. I got down to 219 at one point, doing Atkins. Then I gained some again. Then I got sick with Crohn's and got down to 159, but that was because I was literally starving to death from not absorbing anything I was eating. My blood pressure was dangerously low, my electrolytes were dangerously low, I was horrifically anemic and was very close to being hospitalized. Clearly, I wasn't enjoying that weight, despite being thrilled to BE at that weight again. I told my gastro that there was no way I was ever going to gain that weight back and he told me that I most definitely would and probably more. He said my body was used to starving and that my metabolism was wrecked and I would be conserving every calorie I could and would pack on the weight very quickly once I was absorbing calories again. At that point, I was losing 2.5 pounds a week no matter what I ate. And, of course, he was right. They removed the diseased part of the intestines and while in the hospital for 6 days on nothing but IVs, I gained 5 pounds. I told him I was very upset that I was gaining weight on IVs and he said I was getting more calories from those IVs than I had been getting from my food. I did gain weight rapidly after that. I yo-yo'd around after that, gaining, losing, then I quit smoking and put on 45 pounds very quickly. It was awful. Last Christmas, I decided to stop hitting the vending machines at work and I lost 12 pounds. I also decided that I wanted to try working out to deal with stress, thanks to DoctorD's inspiration. I would read her facebook status saying she was so stressed she couldn't wait to get to the gym to work it out. I thought.. it works for her, maybe it will work for me too. It felt good and it did reduce my stress. Then, on my birthday (March), I decided that the best birthday present I could give myself was to eat the way my body functions best, which is high protein, low carbs. I build bulk muscle very easily and felt GREAT the last time I tried eating that way. It also works well with the Crohn's, since I can't eat fiber. I knew that eating mostly protein made me energetic. I decided that, since I have a chronic illness that I have very little control over, I might as well control the things that I DO have control over. So, between March and July, I lost about 40 more pounds. I started playing around again, eating more carbs and have only lost a few pounds since then. However, I've maintained 56 pound weight loss now for a few months. I stopped working out when grad school started because managing my time became a real challenge with the kids back in school, working full time, having homework to get done so often. I think I'm in a groove with grad school now though. I'm done with this term and I decided this past weekend that it's time to hit the work outs again. I may not get as many in as I was during the spring and summer, but I need to do it more often than I am now. I'm also restricting the carbs again. I do best if I keep it to around 50 g of carbs a day. My goal now? 43 more pounds, maybe even 50 more. Hopefully by our Convention in late June. Our last convention, I was dangerously close to my highest weight ever. I could be about 100 pounds smaller this time around. I'll have to buy a new white dress for Initiation, but hey, that's ok.

My gastro has warned me that I should NOT go below 150 because, if I get a bad flare again, I could lose 30-40 pounds over the course of a couple months and that would be dangerous. He wants me to keep a cushion. I don't think that will be a problem though..lol. I've never lost more than 40 pounds in an attempt before and usually, when I stop, I gain it back faster. Having maintained this loss for this long gives me more confidence that I can keep going.

But, my original point was.. perhaps a program like that would have made me realize that I wasn't the hugely obese person that I thought I was, at 130 pounds. I can be up to 143 and still be in the "normal" range, per the BMI charts.

It totally depends on the campus. I travel to different campuses pretty regularly, and the difference between the cafeterias' options are huge.

Some schools have killer food plans/options, then there are some schools whose options are worse than my high school's (which is saying something considering how long its been since I was in high school).

Of all the schools I've visited lately (considering only those schools where I ate on campus), Virgina Tech's quality/variety is by far the best. Miami (Ohio) is probably next in line. I won't list the schools with the worst options, but it's pretty obvious which schools actually care about the food options available to their students.

Kinda off topic, but not totally... This is one reason why I always recommend that students eat on campus when they visit a school they're interested in. If their food sucks, and you're obligated to purchase a food plan, you're committing yourself to at least a year of unsatisfying dining.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that Lincoln is a historically black university, and correlated the requirement to the crazy levels of diabetes and kidney disease among african-americans

I think EVERYONE regardless of BMI should have to take a health class to graduate anywhere. Diabetes and kidney disease levels might be at dangerous levels in the black, hispanic, and native american population, but statistics among whites aren't all the great, either. A big part of the health class should focus on good eating habits. But maybe Coke and Pepsi have a clause in their contracts with all these schools that no one will mention how bad their products are for you, who knows?

Part of the same requirement for everyone should be a solid education on sexual health as well, considering the insane STD and unwanted preganancy levels among all young people, but that's another battle and another discussion. At Penn State after I left, I think the choice was health ed OR sex ed - why the choice? Why not incorporate both?

(I'm also all for a swimming requirement, too, thinking back on a non-swimming acquantance who drowned up at Penn State my senior year in a situation which would not have killed a swimmer, but again - that's another discussion)

Someone did. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 1871596) I heard an interview with someone from Lincoln (it may have been DeBoy) a week or two ago, and he made a big deal about part of the impetus for this requirement being the problem of obescity among African-Americans, which can lead to other health problems (heart issues, diabetes, etc.). He was laying it out as an HBCU's responsibility to the African-American community, but if that's the reasoning behind it, then it seems everybody should have to take the class, because it's not just about your own health and making good choices for yourself -- it's also about the health of those around you and how you can support healthy choices by others.

lol

Ah, that's what happens when you don't read every page of a 14-page thread.

But my main message still stands - nutrition, health, sex-ed and swimming for all! Anything to give our students the knowledge they need to stay safe, healthy and afloat.