I am happy for you that you are not easily offended. I am not either, though at 18 years of age my skin was not as thick as it is now. I had friends in struggling chapters and the rude things PNMs would do to them was to say the least incomprehensible. I could not imagine being that rude to anyone. I could easily imagine an active crying by what some of these catty girls would do. I felt sorry for the active that had to be forced to deal with these b*tches and had to continue to be polite.

I have come to several conclusions:

Because RFM does not require "bottom" chapters to cut "because of numbers", "bottom" chapters cut women for reasons. The "paper" reasons are obvious, but the reason for release may simply be that she had a dull personality or offended an active without intention. These are the things that mama or PNM may not realize.

Dull personality types/PNMs who fail to make an impression are more common than cross release percentages would suggest. It is possible that women who withdraw from recruitment may have been cut from all chapters had they stuck it out longer. We will never know.

Furthermore, failures are overrepresented on GC, either because PNMs/moms not in the know come here for information, or come specifically to vent about a failure.

Every NPC has chapters at large schools up North (and elsewhere where it is uncommon for PNMs to secure their own recs) who have three options:
*go without a NM class (not a viable option)
*have advisors scramble for recs for 500 girls
*ignore National policy

Unless you are simply writing on a sheet of paper, "Dear Sisters, I recommend Polly PNM for membership in XYZ. Sincerely, Alumna" and counting that as a rec.

I'm curious as to how some chapters get around such a policy.

Can we put a sticky on this thread?

I agree with others that have commented about this - it really can be awful enough to make someone cry. Not during the party, but after or in between parties. Especially considering how raw everyone's nerves are after all the late nights and such. I've seen PNMs straight up ask "why did you invite me back, I didn't want to be here" or just simply not even talk and look down their nose at the chapter member recruiting them. Those are the ones I'd just like to shake and shout "where are you manners!!!"

Well, that's private membership selection information but there are ways.

Waaay back in the day, at my west coast school which was purported to have a "laid-back" recruitment (it was anything but that!) many girls dropped out because they were not invited back to their first choices. The well-intentioned response of my alma mater was to add more chapters, one after another. As in, one in 1981, another in 1982, one more in 1983.....Two of those three chapters are gone, and two more closed as well. The Panhellenic website still says, in capital letters, that recs are not needed. I think that at many schools, girls want to join those chapters perceived as "top," or nor join at all. Unfortunately, at too many schools, as another poster stated, it is the "look" that determines who is invited back.

With 15 minute first rounds, I have to agree that looks do play a role on who the women want to invite back. It is first impressions and how well can you get to know someone in less then 15 minutes? I personally think our first round needs to get a little longer so that we can get to know our PNM's a little better and they can get to know us a little better.

I think many NPCs have no such policy. AOII doesn't. Recs are nice and may be necessary at some chapters but are not required Internationally to be accepted into AOII.

I think a lot of the releases could also be explained by the needs of the sorority in that particular year.

A smaller group who is trying to rebuild may want to focus on quality rather than quantity, and may be fine with not reaching quota if it means they get the type of woman they want. That type may be women with strong leadership qualities who are willing to step into those roles right away and are self-confident enough to want to be a part of rebuilding a group.

So a group interested in a woman wanting to take a leadership role may pass over a woman who says she's really interested in the social part of a sorority, or one who is quiet or shy, because they don't think she wants to lead (even if she does!).

Years later that same group could be doing exceedingly well, and may want a very broad range of girls - or maybe they want to avoid recruiting a lot of strong leadership types because they already have so many and they need other types of women to balance the group out. Maybe they want to expand their social activities on campus and are looking for really outgoing and social women? Or maybe they need some women with really strong academics that year because they lost some of their more academically inclined sisters to graduation.

So I think a lot of the average girls who get cut just might not fit that needs of a particular group in that recruitment - and each group is going to have different needs, and she may not be strong enough in the areas they are seeking to stand out. It's no fault of the PNM, because they don't know what to emphasize about themselves if they do have the qualities that group is seeking.

They may be really social and outgoing - once you get to know them. But if this isn't evident in the first or second round, a sorority looking for those types of girls might pass her over in favour of a girl who is more obviously social. This woman may have ended up being a stellar member, but with such a short amount of time, the sorority has to go with what they see and know from those short meetings (especially when a larger group has to cut a LOT of PNMs after the first round, because they are required to due to release figures).

See, this confuses me. At my school, we dont do recs at all (actually, if you talked to most people here, and you explained recs, they would think you were crazy, they have never heard of them). We have registration, so panhel finds out all the necessary information such as GPA, activities, legacy, etc etc etc...there is a GPA minimum to go through recruitment, etc....but I thought this happened at all schools?

I think our Panhel feels that having the basics like that on file satisfies the need for recs, and the rest is up to a girl to make a good impression and find her sorority. I've never seen recs mentioned in our national policy either.

I dont know, maybe I am missing something...(like I said, I only know about it because of GC!) but we do great without recs, and we're doing better every year.

Okay, yeah, I understood most of that already, but you did clear it up for me so thank you! I was just most confused about the comment about "ignoring national policy", I wasnt sure if the poster was saying that she thinks it is and that we ignore it...or...I dunno, I didnt understand what she meant by the post.

We definitely dont have even 500+ girls going through, so we dont need them, but who knows, if we ever grew enough, we might move into needing recs!

Precisely.

While its possible not all NPCs have that policy, but I would hope the Membership/Recruitment advisor for the ones that do are aware and make the chapter aware of that requirement. They should also be aware what they need to do to ensure that requirement is fulfilled.

I wonder what kind of monitoring the (inter)national organizations do if they require recs since many schools just don't do them (unless of course, chapters are doing like violetpretty says and writing a quick sentence to satisfy the requirement.)

If you have less members than everyone else to begin with, the last thing you need is Zelda 0.0 dragging you down even further. This is when you call up HQ and say "which do you want - numbers or grades?"

Coming from a "not top tier" chapter, you'd be amazed at how awful some rushees can be. I won't get into voting detail but there were some women that I just wanted to be able to vote infinity lower than I did because they were so rude. Then of course, if there are girls who didn't get bids and the lower-down chapters didn't take them, all of a sudden the sorority is full of total bitches. (It was OK for the top sorority to reject them, however.) May I also add, for every sorority (tiers notwithstanding) there are things that can make you a favorite at one chapter, and detested at another. And it's usually nothing you can even spell out.

I beg to defer - my daughter was just cut from all houses while rushing at a Big Ten University, she is an out of state student. She was a legacy at KKG, DG, Theta, and AXO...talk about devasting, her sister is currently a "sitting "sister at KKG" and she assumed that she was a shoo-in - she is a pretty (an Elite model), smart (at the University on a full scholarship for being a National Merit Scholar) and has a many hours logged in community service. She was also very familiar with playing the game of looking put together and telling the girls that she was very interested in their house. She did not mention many of her accomplishments, hoping the girls would like her for her personality. With a full slate of legacy recommendations, she was interviewed by all of the executive committee members - who told her that they couldn't wait to see her back the next day, only to cut her. Although she does not drink, she is not "preachy" about what others choose to do. She was looking for an opportunity for community service, leadership, and a place to belong...only to be shut out, I understand that most colleges conduct rush at the start of the school year in the hopes that girls will have a place to belong, but having been through the middle of the school year rush - I think it is a better option - if a girls does not make it in it does not lead the depression and disappointment. She is looking forward to finding a place to make her mark at her school, but it will not be in the greek community...she did not understand how all of the legacies on her dorm floor were asked to pledge and she was not. AphiAnna you obviously do not have any daughters.

You are entitled to your opinion. I have noticed in my many years of having children through college that similiar thoughts are expressed by those made by thouse who have children that have not yet started school or have children that have not experienced multiple disappointments in life.

I initially agreed with you. Then I realized that I can't fathom it because I'm not completely in the NPC recruitment frame of reference.

I keep skipping back to how something like that is rare in the NPHC process and how it would be dealt with. :p

First, my disclaimer. My daughter is not yet in college. Actually, she is only 10 months old. But, despite that, I do have hopes and dreams for her, so I can relate to a mom wanting her "baby girl" to be happy.

That being said, I do think you may be reading a bit much into Anna's post. I found her post to be well written, helpful, and even had a bit of sensitivity. Yes, after being cut by all houses there it can really hurt to read something like that, but I do feel that she presented it in a very considerate manner. She provided a very enlightened (perhaps a tad too enlightened for membership selection info) glimpse into what 18-22 year olds are noticing as they meet prospective members. I did not find anything tacky or mean-spirited about her post. Trust me, it could have been much, much worse. I also know many women in my organization with college-aged daughters who would have had the same thought as she did.

Again, I am very sorry for your daughters experience. Really, I am. However, I think that some of your pain may have been misplaced on Anna.

First of all, I am sorry for your daughter and the fact that she didn't find her "home". I would encourage her to look into COB opportunities if they are available.

That being said, I don't see how her experience would give you reason to completely disagree with APhiAnna's entire post (or assume that she doesn't have children).

As has been said (to other parents/friends of PNMs), you weren't there with your daughter during recruitment, so you really don't know the reasons why she was cut. Maybe it was because she fell under one of the bulleted points that APhiAnna mentioned, or maybe she just slipped through the cracks. But APhiAnna's post simply said that to blame a poor recruitment outcome on the sororities is the wrong thing to do. The system may be flawed in some ways, but that's not the fault of the individual sororities.

gee I hope her attitude does not prevent my daughter from getting into the Country Club of her choice :)

Girls who try too hard are a huge turn-off.

Also it sounds like you're either a huge B or oblivious to the fact that your daughter is.

This comment just seems weird to me. Ignoring that and moving on...

I wonder if maybe your daughter was coming off as too snobby or something...whether or not she is, all those legacies and scholarships and blah blah blah honestly can be a huge turn off to people. Yeah, I know its counter-intuitive, but still... those are things you want to see on paper, but when you meet the girl, it can be disastrous if they go about it the wrong way. I know you said she didnt talk about her accomplishments, but this still makes me wonder. If she came through and I met her, I would be wary of a girl touting all that, sometimes it comes off as "Well I am better than you and I know I am getting a bid"

Honestly, I dont have daughters. I am still a Collegiate member of a sorority, I'm not there yet lol. But, I will say, it doesnt matter how many legacies you are, or how "put together" you look, or how good you are at pretending to be interested in an org, a major part of recruitment is luck and chemistry.

You have to make a connection with the girls that are in the room at that moment, it really doesnt matter if youre a legacy, it matters if the girls can see your daughter as a new sister. Every four years, I feel like a sorority can be completely different because of the individual members. If you daughter doesnt click, it might just be because she just didnt get a chance to make a connection.

I know when my daughters go through, I will want really badly for her to get into the sorority of her choice (and I will secretly pray it will be mine ;) ) but I will also try to be understanding and ready for the fact that she might not make it in her first try, or at all. If she doesnt click with the sorority women on her campus, then it just wont be the right thing for her, and it may be hard for me, but its about her college experience.

I am sorry about that kind of heartbreak, its hard to get over, but encourage her to try COB, I am sure if she gets a different method of meeting women, it will be easier. We all (do/and will) build our daughters up, mothers know their daughters better than anyone, but in the end, we just dont know how they really acted that day under all that pressure....sometimes its better for women to do COB because its a different environment.

Best of luck. And remember, its not about "playing a game", its about making friends, life long friends, and they may or may not be in a sorority for your daughter. Letters mean absolutely nothing if you don't sincerely love to be with your sisters.

There's a serious gap in this story. I'd like to know at what point she was cut all the way out. I don't think there's a Big 10 campus that doesn't have at least 1 sorority that is struggling enough to take virtually anyone who meets the criteria. Again (and this is said so many times on GC) was she literally cut from every house? At the University of Iowa, all the houses you mentioned are pretty prestigious. But there are at least 2 or 3 chapters who are struggling. The only way she'd have been cut from my chapter, as a for instance, is if she was unbelievably rude. And out of state would have no impact at a Big 10 school. Out of state is far and away too common at those schools to have an impact. If nothing else, someone from an unusual state would have a benefit from being different and memorable.

If she's at a Big 10 school and got cut out, I'd suggest she look at COB, and accept that she's going into a lower tier house. If she's all that, she'll be able to make an impact on the chapter immediately.

I have two daughters - does my opinion get to count?

I agree that there is something missing - getting cut from ALL the houses (getting cut; not deciding that some houses simply weren't "worthy" of her attention) is rare.

Unless you were in the room at recruitment, you have only your daughter's word as to how she acted. She knows her perceptions - but not those of the chapters. Yes, she should COB. It may be that she is simply one of those girls who does not do well during formal recruitment.

I hope her daughter can work it out. I think the Greek systems are suffering a bit in the Big 10, so it would be a shame to lose a quality candidate because she didn't fully understand the process or her "tone." But I still think I'd press the daughter to admit she wasn't actually cut from every single chapter and there ARE chapters who might be willing to accept her. Even small houses on these campuses have a lot to offer, and for the umpteenth time, 1 new member class changes the membership by approximately 25%. Join that small house and get your friends to join too. You can be a top tier house within 4 years.

I will find out in 12 days whether I'm going to have a daughter or a son... not sure if I'm "qualified" to make a statement or not.

You're not with your daughter 24-7. You weren't there at recruitment. Kids can act pretty damn different when not in front of their parents. Maybe she was a total biatch. Maybe she was making out with some other girl's boyfriend on top of the bar at XYZ fraternity the day before recruitment started. Or maybe even making out with another girl on top of the bar (yep, seen that one happen, too. What mom would believe her daughter would do that? Very few. But it happens). We don't know. But there could be a very good chance your daughter did something to make herself look bad during or right before recruitment. Or maybe she just didn't stand out at all (probably the more likely choice, but you never kow).

KKGDGMom, I'm sorry your daughter is hurt and disappointed. I understand why you are feeling the same way for her.

Obviously I was not there but more importantly please keep in mind you were not there either. You do not know how well she did or didn't relate to the actives during the parties, nor do you know what happened during the membership selection meetings. Your daughter may be an amazing young woman, but maybe that didn't shine through. Some possible explanations:
Perhaps nobody knew her very well.
By "sitting sister" I assume that means an in house, as in currently active, sister. The other Chapters may have assumed she would go KKG. Fair or not, this is a common assumption with in house sisters. She may have been released because other Chapters thought they had no chance, so why not give that invite to someone who they have a better chance with.

As for why the in house legacy Chapter released her, it happens. Even that is no guarantee. Perhaps your older daughter simply didn't have enough "pull" with the other actives?

I'm also wondering if the older sister invited her to campus to visit last year? This would have given the actives a better chance to get to know her. If she did visit and knew the actives, then perhaps they didn't feel she would fit in.
You can never assume anything. Perhaps she came across as cocky without even realizing it. That can be a real turn off.
I have seen some less competitive Chapters assume because of all these great traits that they have no chance with a PNM. Might as well release her and give that spot to someone who they have a better shot of actually accepting a bid.
That is quite telling IMO. She viewed it as "playing a game" saying she is interested. Perhaps she did not come across as sincere, at least not sincere enough to overcome some of the other possible issues.
Why wouldn't she tell the actives about all the great things she has done and how she could benefit their Chapter? Personality is important, but if a gazillion PNMs have a great personality they will choose those who are the "whole package": great personality, strong resume, strong GPA, etc.

Did she have Recs to all the Chapters or just her legacy Chapters?
"Interviewed by the Exec Committee"? I'm not sure what that means in a Formal Recruitment setting. Are you saying she was introduced to Exec officers? A lot of Chapters introduce as many PNMs as possible to Exec officers. Again, that is no guarantee of anything.

While saying they want to see her the next day is a Recruitment violation, it too isn't a guarantee. It might have been a honest slip up. It might have been that they truly meant that but it was only the opinion of a few members. A few members can be outvoted by the rest of the Chapter.

Keep in mind, the goal of every Chapter is for every PNM to leave thinking the Chapter loved them. Nobody wants a PNM to feel she is not liked or wanted. Besides as said before, perhaps those actives who recruited her did like her and want her, but there were other PNMs who were liked/wanted more by the whole Chapter. Granted I don't know the membership selection process any other GLO besides my own, but it is safe to say it is a democratic process in that it is a majority decision.

That's great. Did she convey this to the Chapters? That might have back fired. Talking about alcohol and her opinions is not a good topic during Recruitment no matter what her opinion is.

That's great too. However, you stated that she did not talk about her accomplishments. How was the Chapter supposed to know what she has done and what she wants to do if she doesn't tell them? Besides, most PNMs are looking for an opportunity to do all those things as well.

You cannot compare one PNMs situation or results to another.
I don't know that she does or doesn't, do you? Besides, having or not having daughters does not preclude anyone from providing good advice or explanations about Recruitment. The only thing having a daughter can do is provide someone with a better understanding of a parent's pain when their child is in pain. But even those without kids can still relate to that.

hijack -
we need updated pictures of DD.
/hijack

I call troll at this point.

Listen, if you are a real person, I get that you're disappointed. Coming on a website and bitching about it, however, is not the answer. In fact, there's absolutely nothing you can do. Welcome to parenting college students.

IF she indeed was cut from all of the chapters, and is a legacy to so many orgs, I'm assuming right now that she knowingly sabotaged herself.

I'm not a mom, so I'm just asking this question. Moms, Do you ever prepare DD for disappointment?

"DD, even though you are an Elite Model, have a 10.0 on a 4.0 scale and are as sweet as can be, there might be chpaters at University of Wherever that may cut you. I still want you to try your best, and its not always that they don't want you, but the bottom line is that they might want someone more. We don't know if all of the girls that XYZ took were legacies too and were next door neighbors of sitting members.

It may not work out the way we planned it -- recommendations and interviews with the executive counsels -- but this is preparing you for life. You might also not get into Harvard Law School. You might not get that job you want. And, like Elle Woods, you might get dumped by your BF when you think he is proposing. DD, life is full of disappointments and nobody is exempt."

On the issue of knowing how 18 year old girls behave, here is a general observation. I'm at Pref last night, and the PNMs are lined up outside and I look at a room full of our beautiful members wearing their finest dresses -- CHEWING GUM. Time out! "Get rid of your f-ing gum" And, as girls walked in, my guess was 1/3 were also chewing gum.

I also observed many PNMs leaning back in their chairs when talking to the girl that wanted to be paired with them, completely unaware that they body language showed disinterest, even though they might be interested. Ok, they are 18 years old.

Finally, during the crying ceremony, I looked at one PNM sitting in her chair with her elbows on her knees and chin in her hands, obviously completely bored. Note to self, she is 18.

Bottom line, I agree that you haven't any idea what she is doing when she is out of your sight. In fact, you say that she says she doesn't drink. She says!

I was wondering when we'd have a psycho mom come on here during recruitment season.

She's a little late into recruitment season, but I guess better late than never :p

With regards to the young lady who was cut at the Big 10 school..... certainly, I feel bad for her, unless it was that "one thing" that got her cut. Or maybe it was the pantyhose with the rhinestones....

[QUOTE=texas*princess;1846417]I was wondering when we'd have a psycho mom come on here during recruitment season.

She's a little late into recruitment season, but I guess better late than never :p



Oh no, Ole' Miss hasn't yet begun! Prepare for cover. Helimoms are out there lurking.

Wow ladies (and I use that term loosely here) you are HARSH! way to represent the greek community. You were amazingly quick to bash my daughters Morals (no she is not a drunken sleaze making out with fraternity guys or girls for that matter on a bar), insinuate that she is lacking fashion sense (she is an elite model -so no rhinestone pantihose here). I sure hope that none of the posters are a member of my sorority. But thank you anyways, you gave me and my daughter a good laugh and have officially turned our thoughts around about being disappointed that she did not make it past round 3 (she was dropped) before Pref night. It is good to know that girls like my daughter (in your opinion) belong in a lower tier house. What it wrong with thinking that there is not such thing as a lower tier house. You might trying showing compassion to girls who are clearly not in your league...

I would hope I don't have any daughters, I'm 21.

One situation that may make sense is if her daughter was invited back to all of her top choices in the earliest rounds. Therefore she eliminated the chapters who would have really wanted her, only to maybe make a "flub" or simply fall through the cracks during later rounds causing her to get cut by the chapters she had left, which were much more competitive sororities. I agree that it is extremely rare to get cut by all sororities at many campuses, but this scenario could make it plausible.

To kkgdgmom, I'm sorry if you feel my post was harsh, but I see it as a valid statement. You are doing the very thing that inspired me to write that post: to assume that all the blame for your daughter's recruitment was on the chapters and not on her. In order to grow I think your daughter (if she is even as upset as you are, she may be over it already) should sit down and try to think about what she did and how she can improve that aspect. It can be really hard, and I know it is a painful situation, but a victim mentality is always a hindrance to growth.

Well, the possibility does exist that her daughter didn't do anything wrong, but simply didn't quite make it onto the bid lists at the chapters she went to for third round. Depending on those chapters' return rates, they may not get to pref very many girls. If they assumed she was going to go Kappa, they may have released her in favor of keeping someone they thought had a completely open mind.

We've talked on here before about how it's better sometimes to be cut hard in the early rounds so that you can finish out at the groups that are really interested. It may just be that she fell though the cracks through no real fault of her own.

On the other hand, kkgdgmom, sometimes the rest of the world doesn't see us as quite as amazing as our moms do. Your own evaluation of your daughter's relative strength in the PNM pool may be not be objective. She may not have come across as as interested and sweet as other PNMs. I think every chapter has girls that they liked who they release for one reason or another. As long as they end up with a pledge class they like, it doesn't really mean there's a problem with the whole system. Encourage your daughter to pursue COB if it's available on her campus. Or simply to get involved with other organizations to put her in the best position should she decide to re-rush. Or even just to move on with her life without worrying about being Greek. Life goes on.

I can't believe I'm doing this, but I absolutely hate irrational old people. It's less excusable than irrational young'ns.
I don't believe anyone said that she had bad morals. However, you don't know what your daughter has done, really. If you're with her every day, all day...then maybe you can say that. But that would mean she is probably special. Shoot, my parents don't know about all the blow I use to do and thought I hated drugs. You never quite know about your own flesh and blood.
You don't know that she had "fashion sense" for that University. If I saw a girl at the UofA walking around in some of the crap I've seen girls out west wear, I would imagine they would be cut the first day.
I don't know that anyone said that she belonged in a low tier sorority. Discussing tiers is not something GC looks very highly upon, so I sort of doubt it...though I haven't re-read the conversation.