Oh, I didn't catch that we had moved to talking about weapons of mass destruction.

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

If you actually spent time with Bush and talked to him you would realize that he is not an "idiot". Great personality, great storyteller. Can work a room better than anyone.

Carry on.

Too many people have died so that US citizens wouldn't have to bow to any foreign power. The head bob that both of the Obamas gave to the Queen was appropriate, and not offensive. The bowing to the Saudi King will almost definitely come back to bite the President in the behind.

No, he just plays one on TV.

I don't see how any of those qualities or abilities make him not an idiot. They just make him good with people.

I doubt it.

How? I feel like if it hasn't now, when will it? 2012?

^^It will be something people remember if he screws up again.

Why are we talking about Bush? He isn't the president anymore, and I doubt he lives in Saudi Arabia now.

Ummmmm........well in my experience its pretty easy to tell if someone is an idiot when you can talk to them one on one, spend time with them and his family, and listen to him amongst groups of people.

Every word a President says is scrutinized. Making a few verbal gaffes does not/and should not qualify someone as an "idiot."

Idiot =


an utterly foolish or senseless person.
a person of the lowest order in a former classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25.  http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif  /ˈɪdhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.pngihttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.pngət/ http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictiona...on_default.gif Show Spelled Pr


Bush is neither.....and I disagreed with him on countless issues and decisions.

Once again, carry on.

If it does bite him in the ass then its well deserved. A head bob is not a gesture of subservience like a bow is. The King sure as hell didn't return the bow... goes to show how much respect he has for Obama.

While I don't fall in the "Bush is an idiot" camp (even though I know quite a few idiots who went to Harvard and Yale and can talk up a room like nobody's business), I have to laugh -- hard -- at "a few verbal gaffes." That's like saying a tornado is a little breeze.

Well, I could say that one does bow to royalty, but one does not typically bow to presidents. Americans don't bow to the president, why should anyone else think that doing so is a sign of respect?

But it's pretty obvious this has nothing to do with your feelings about the bow itself and everything to do with your feelings about Obama himself.

Just be honest about that or get over it already.

Haha, yeah I feel ya.

Look, my family, especially my dad, has had a relationship with the Bush family for 25 years. Pretty much all grew out of the oil business. Dad's best friend's father was, literally, one of H.W.'s closest friends. C. Fred Chambers. He contributed heavily to his campaign, along with bigs from Baker Botts, etc. Fred died a while back....we sat with the Bushes and Chambers family in the church. Taken them fishing, co-hosted parties during various campaigns in Texas, etc. etc. Basically, we know them and they know us. Not like we are buddy-buddy....but you get the picture.

People can think he's an idiot all they want. He made some idiotic decisions. Get him in the right setting and you'll see that he really isn't one.

I know exactly what you're saying. I think anyone who has had any kind of personal/familial relationship with a prominent public figure, especially a polarizing one, can have a view of that figure that is quite at odds with the view of the random guy on the street. On one hand that may be because the personal/familial relationship can cloud one's objectivity, but at the same time it can give one a much better and more rounded view of the public figure.

Why didn't he bow to the Emperor of Japan or the Queen then? They are royalty.

With this logic its not okay for anyone who doesn't like Obama to criticize him. If Bush bowed before the King and then lied about it I would be just as outraged, I assure you. I was upset over the hand holding, and that's nowhere near as bad as this (nor did he lie about it/ deny it.)

Funny, I was going to add a disclaimer to my post, but deleted it. It went something like this:

It's fairly obvious that I did not vote for Obama. I still think that there are four other people in the United States who are much better qualified to run for President. That said, Obama won, and is our President. I will give him the respect due to him - the respect for the Office of the President of the United States and as a good speaker. I am really trying to go out of my way to say that the Protocol Office may not have properly advised the President about certain situations (such as hugging the Queen).

In other words, I really don't have an axe to grind or an agenda to push - but if he keeps ignoring simple protocol, I will feel free to bash as often as certain posters bashed other Presidents.

There was more, but I haven't slept since Sunday morning, so that will have to do for now.

Has Obama met the Emperor of Japan and I missed it? That said, perhaps its because our diplomatic relations with Japan and the UK are much more stable than our relationship with Saudi Arabia. Perhaps its because, unlike Elizabeth II and Akihito, who are heads of state but not of government, Abdullah actually has power, along with influence throughout a large chunk of the world where we need friends with influence. I don't know.

I'll agree it was inappropriate and unfortunate. But I'm with dekeguy and others on this -- in the grand scheme of things it's just not that big a deal to me.

Not what I said at all, nor would I say it. I simply observed that your comments on the subject, and the tenor of your comments on the subject, suggest that your real beef is with Obama himself. If that's not the case, that's not the case, but that is how it looks to me. 'Course, I'll admit my perception may be faulty because I really can't see much other reason to get too upset over this. Other things, sure; this, not so much.

So you were bothered by Bush's bow to Pope John Paul II, then?

And serious request: Can you point me to "the lie from the White House"? All I have been able to find is a response (that Obama was stooping to shake the king's hand) attributed to an anonymous aide. I don't think I'd consider that a White House statement, much less a lie from Obama. Is there an actual statement or response from the White House?

Ooo. Hope you're okay.

And for the record, my Jamestown kin (or near kin), it was clear to me that your concern was for proper protocol, pure and simple.

Speaking of protocol, you do know the story about Jackie Kennedy, don't you? When she and President Kennedy met the Queen and Prince Philip, Angier Biddle Duke, Kennedy's chief of protocol, advised Mrs. Kennedy that wives of heads of state do not bow or curtsy to kings and queens. When Mrs. Kennedy received Prince Philip after after Kennedy's funeral, Duke noticed that she curtsied. Knowing that she was stickler for protocol, he expressed his surprise to her. She is said to have responded, "Angie, I'm not the wife of a head of state anymore."

MysticCat, I've found mostly bloggers' take on the bow, but I do remember hearing about it on NBC. This link at least quotes a White House spokesman, Robert Gibbs.

One excerpt that I feel compelled to cite: "But the traditional Miss Manners book of etiquette advises: 'One does not bow or curtsy to a foreign monarch because the gesture symbolizes recognition of her power over her subjects.'"

I have no idea if this source has an agenda or not.

Loved the Jackie Kennedy story!

Thanks. That's more than I had been able to find elsewhere.

And I knew you'd like that story. :D

Well, this really does bother me a great deal. I in fact was bothered by Bush's bow to the pope, but that is not the issue in question here.

As for the white house denial: http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmi..._to_Saudi.html

And here is a week later when the press sec angrily dismissed a question about it: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_185281.html

Both links are from liberal sites. God... I hate Huffington and would advise you to only read the quotes.

That really did have me laughing out loud.

The statement that's in Ben Smith's blog is the one I was talking about that comes from an un-named aide, which I don't consider a White House statement, per se. She-who-should-not-be-named's site had the same quote as the story that honeychile linked, which I had missed -- I missed a lot of news last week. That clearly is an official response (or, um, non-response.)

And I call truce -- I accept that you're truly bothered by it. ;)

"It wasn't a bow. He grasped his hand with two hands, and he's taller than King Abdullah," said an Obama aide, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

As quoted from the Politco


Hell, that could have been the janitor saying that.


GIBBS: No, I think he bent over with both, to shake -- with both hands to shake his hand, so I don't--

From The Huff...

wow.

You know what...fuck it...there is really no proof...some of you aren't going to be convinced one way or another...believe whatever the hell you want and move on.

BTW...in some 'real' news...Al Franken won the MN senate seat.

Okay, for all you "open-minded" people. You're being so close-minded right now it's ridiculous, there is no way in hell our Commander-in-Chief should be bowing to anyone. When we go to war with a country, we don't bow, shake hands with them and wish them luck do we? Our job as America should be use diplomacy when its called for, but at the same time we should the fear of God into everyone else and put them in their place. And I agree with Phi Gam, it's ok to blast bush cause he's a "dumb redneck" from Texas. But forbid we do it to the almighty obama. You people need a reality check.

I have to agree somewhat with Nate. Some of you are treating Obama like he is some kind of god.

Then again there were some Bush supporters who treated Bush like that too.

DS...while I don't think this whole thing was a big deal, you, better than anyone, should know how difficult it is sometimes to "move on" when you think a President did something incorrectly (especially when you didn't vote for that specific President).

But, again, personally I don't see the big deal with any of this.

I don't see that at all in this thread - I see people disagreeing about the seriousness of this, or even if he bowed at all, but I haven't seen anyone in this thread treat the President like he's a "god."

The simple fact is, there are some people who were all over Bush who aren't going say a bad word about Obama (no matter what), and people who supported Bush who will be all over Obama (no matter what). That's the political climate, take it or leave it.

no one is doing that. those people are just being realistic on this issue in relation to bigger things.

I should have mentioned that I was speaking in terms of other threads also. It's like an "Obama can do no wrong" mentality. But I know that there are Bush supporters who do the same. That was my point.

Exactly..."When in Rome, do as the Romans do".

I wonder what people will do and say if Obama goes to Japan? Japan definitely does bowing, when two people meet and greet each other.

I think that there is a height differential when bowing amongst your peers...like your status determines how low you should go to acknowledge the other.

Yes, its just like in martial arts. The student bows lower to the ground than the teacher and the student must both initiate the bow and wait for the teacher to finish bowing before standing up again. If Obama went to Japan then him and the emperor should bow to approximately equal levels. In Saudi Arabia, he bowed to the King and the King smiled.

It's sad to see people saying that an American leader shouldn't show respect to leaders of other countries. Perhaps that is why the US is held in such contempt around the world. Perhaps this move by OBama to show some respect is why he has such favor around the world with other leaders.

I think American arrogance is about to be nipped int he bud with this new administration and it is refreshing.

As for Michelle and the Queen...seems like most people conveniently want to ignore the fact that the Queen was the one who initiated the "affectionate moment" when she put her arm around Michelle. Michelle simply responded in kind. Perhaps the real issue in all of this is that there is a group of people who just don't want to accept the fact that the Queen showed this particular First Lady more affection than she has ever really shown any other First Lady or leader. I think it is wonderful, and it is just more proof of how much people really like the Obamas.

I would also like to add that one thing that makes the Obamas so popular is how "real" they are. They know when to stick strictly with protocol and when to add just the right personal touch. Again, this kind of thing is refreshing. Sometimes protocol and tradition should be set aside.

http://www.pledgepark.com/images/smi..._deadhorse.gif

I mean really...can we move on now???

This is like the one thread EVER that's stayed on topic, come one now.

True...but the vultures have circled the carcass for some time now...I say let them eat.

Note to self: Save this image if it kills you.

I answered your damn question and then brought it back to topic.

You're welcome.

Some of us like the way that America is and don't want their country to be viewed as "equal" to a horrible place like Saudi Arabia.

What has all of this "favor" with world leaders accomplished exactly? He failed to get other countries to pass huge stimulus bills and he failed to get troop commitments to Afghanistan. At least Chavez likes him... :rolleyes:

Get it right...I didn't ask the question. I amswered, you co signed.

so Thank YOU....

Except between naval ships of two countries passing each other; the ensign is dipped as they pass, but naval protocol requires the 'dip' to be returned.

The keyword there is 'returned.' Without actually looking it up I believe the Naval regulation allows US vessels to acknowledge another vessels ensign being dipped. It's just a way of communicating that they've been recognized. In short they dip to us, we don't dip to them.