nikki you and I are >>>>>>>>>>>here<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

I'm married. Have been for 3 years. It doesn't suck.

I'm currently a legal intern in a law practice which among other things, handles divorces. For those folks, marriage is a curse and divorce is a blessing. They often go on to have great second marriages.

Don't be scared, just exercise good judgment.

Some of us just aren't cut out to be married and, unfortunately, we don't find that out until we've tried it... sometimes twice..lol. I couldn't stand being married. I couldn't stand having to consult somebody else before I spent money. I couldn't stand cleaning up after someone else or not being able to find things because they weren't put away in the right place. I couldn't stand having to share my space or being woken up in the middle of the night because I was breathing too loud and keeping him awake. I hate whiskers in the sink. I hate cleaning up after people who should be totally capable of doing it themselves but never do. There was absolutely no benefit to being married for me in either of my former marriages. None, zip, zero, zilch. Both husbands personalities changed completely once we had that slip of paper. There's no way I'd do that again.

That said, back to the original topic. Right now, for me, someone who is unemployed is a deal breaker for a couple reasons. One, I date to go out and have fun and I'm finding that these unemployed guys aren't quite in a "fun" state of mind. Two, the unemployed guys have way too much time on their hands and want to hang out more than I have time for. They tend to want to get together too often. If you want to date me, you get no more than every other Saturday. That's when I have time for you, so don't push for more, thanks.

:eek:

o.k. guys this post just scared the crap out of me.

Why?

There are plenty of people that doesn't happen to. Personally, I think I'd have found out had I lived with them first, but I never did. However, I did point out that I have very little tolerance for others' shortcomings (like not putting things away where they found them). That's my own flaw, but now that I recognize it, I know I couldn't live with someone again.

ETA: I should have recognized those things about myself because almost every college roommate I had drove me absolutely up a wall with their bad habits. Yes, I have bad habits too, but I'm ok with mine. It's other people's I can't deal with!

I mean everything she said was negative. Not so much the sharing part, because I'm all about that. But the part about changing after the papers are signed. Then she said not eveyone is cut out for it. She tried it twice and it still didn't work.

o.k. so then it's you. Not them. You said that they changed once the papers were signed. What about you? Did you change? So was it you that was the common denominator of the problems in both of your marriages? Dee, I'm not trying to be mean, I'm just asking.

Whoa. I think you went a little too far there. Stay in your lane, please.

It isn't, and I've long sent her a PM about it. Thanks.

KSU you and I really are the same person.

I had more money and a better financial situation when I was engaged and living with my former future ex-husband. Married people can actually have a better situation money wise, since they have one household to support.

Almost all the married people I know are freaking miserable, and complain all the time. The only married couple I actually want to hang out with is a same sex couple because they are exactly the same people as before they got married in a state that recognizes they are a couple.

Cheerful---

As long as I have seen AGDee's posts, this is just her reality and her path in her life. So what, her marriage experience was less that to be desired for her? That is all it is...

She MIGHT get married again... :rolleyes: But for her right now, her issues are about respecting her space... That's all, no more, no less...

My marriage has not been rosy either. There have been times I got fed up just like AGDee. I just chose how significant my relationship to my husband is to me. She just chose differently--'cuz hey, fortunately, she's not me... But, I do respect her for what she is saying and from that all of us can learn...

Oh no, please don't get me wrong. I respect Dee too. She's one of the nicer posters on here. It's just the way it was posted that gave me a bad impression. That and based on some of the other things I've heard from other people. I sent her a PM though, because it really wasn't any of my business to begin with.

No worries folks, it's all good. I posted it after all. When any relationship fails, there is "fault" on both parts. Yeah, both of them acted differently after being married than they did while we were dating. Dating is a lot of fun. You go out, you hang out when you want to, you have fun. Marriage is MUCH harder. I think even happily married people will admit that. Suddenly, you're sharing housework, finances, and most often, eventually, parenting duties. Suddenly, it makes a big difference when he works long hours or golfs on three golf leagues or buys a $900 TV without mentioning it to you. Who knew he wouldn't give that up when there was an infant at home, day care bills and diapers to be changed? Who knew he wouldn't put his wife and child first at that point? You can't really know until it happens. Who knew he would freak out at having to live on a budget? Just because he lived at home until you married (when he was 30), he's an accountant, you figure he'll be all good financially but in reality, he has never balanced his checkbook! There's a lot of stuff you just don't know. And then, there's how you react to those changes. People are going to change over their lifetimes no matter what. Sometimes it's for the better and people grow closer together. Sometimes it is for the worse and they grow apart. Sometimes they become so resentful of each other that they say mean and hurtful things, creating wounds that won't ever really heal. We don't always handle the situation in the best way possible. However, we have to take each experience and learn from it. What I learned from mine is that I'm probably not really cut out to be married, even though I was brainwashed to "go to college, get a career, get married, have babies". I have no regrets because I got two wonderful children out of the deal. I'm very independent by nature, more independent than I thought I was (or could be!). But, there's nothing to be afraid of, really. It's simply this thing called life. There are ups and downs along the way. The ups don't mean you're a good person and the downs don't mean you're a bad person. We all just do the best we can to live our life in the best way we know how.

Yes, I'm very cynical about marriage personally. I do have a hard time shutting my mouth about it some days..lol. I should be more careful about it around the idealists. But, I tend to be practical too. Relationships are hard work. I didn't get much benefit from either of my marriages so I didn't stick with them. Along the way though, I also learned that I didn't "need" a man, which was the most liberating discovery I've ever made about myself. It freed me to be who I really am instead of what society (family, etc) expected of me.

I know people who consider themselves very happily married whose marriages would make me miserable if I was the one in them. I know others who are truly happily married in marriages that I could probably tolerate (lol.. probably). I see many people with completely different expectations of how a marriage should be. All of those expectations should be explored long before marriage.

^^^Thanks Dee, and I'm really sorry for being so direct.

Thank you so much for sharing that aspect of yourself. I know I appreciate it.

You remind me of one of my aunts. She could not stay married too long. Married 4 times!!! She currently is married now. Does not have children...

The fact is, I admire your reality of choosing to be a single mother with beautiful children. While it is harder to make it on your own, it is awesome that you are WORKING it, gwirl!!! WORKING IT!!!

And hayle yeah, all those expectations can be explored long before marriage!

See, that's the whole thing. For me, it's EASIER to do it on my own... so much easier than dealing with "him" on a daily basis. Of course, he's as dedicated a father as he is capable of and we do have 50-50 custody so my kids firmly have two active and involved parents. Plus, I get the "alone time" that I so badly need.

I do think that two marriages was enough and I can't imagine doing it again. I think I've lost all credibility with saying those vows! I ascribe to the notion that I would do best in a long term relationship with His and Hers houses right next door to each other! That would suit me fine.

Dee, it's safe to say that the next guy that comes along will have to be used to the role of long term boyfriend and respect your independence.
What happens if time goes by and they want more?

Breathe!!! Talk about EASY!!! I can see how devoted you are... And hey, be devoted to some who appreciates it--YOURSELF!!! :)

Do you think it is a matter of "credibility"? Pardon me if I am overreaching here, but you have boundaries and space that you hold dear and are important to you. Apparently, it sounds like your relationships just did not respect that aspect about you!!!

So, if I may, can your next love gain your respect and for your boundaries?

His and her houses might be one way, but is that realistic?

Hey...if Oprah and Stedman can do it...LOL


Saying it as she did, she needs a man who is strong enough to be her man and let her stand on her own two an without the pressure of marriage.

I applaud her for that.

Too many times you see people who are still married and miserable but stay just to go through the motions of trying to do as society has them do as a married couple but at least she is honest about how she feels about the institution.

Well IDK about Dee's situation with the two housed marriage? Whatever her answer is, I wish her the best!

Yeah, there are people who go through the motions. But those of us who are married, like me, meant what we vowed to do--even in a court of law. Not saying anything what Dee's situation currently is, just saying, all of us do have to go into the marriage KNOWING key things about ourselves and putting them on the table...

Her's was her independence and space... I think a woman who can hold her own like that, is like wow!!!

My issue was my insecurity and fear of losing my husband... They say that 3 days doesn't change a person... Well, after being trained with hospice care--3 days lasts a lifetime... When questioned about my own death, the last "thing" I was "willing" to give up... It was my husband... But for my own selfish reasons. So many times I was willing to give up all kinds of things, especially my life--when I saw the reality of it, in the tiny exercise in hospice care training, just for being a volunteer!!! I am not afraid of my losses--I am more afraid of loved one's loss of me!!!

IDK how I made that connection with my husband? But I must say I love him holistically... And I hope everyone has what I have and if I lose that, I am glad I had that experience and if alive, I will move forward... That's when I speak to Dee and ask, help me?

Pretty much that is where I am. What I plan to do for a living requires me to be in remote places for extended periods of time, often forming friendships with people of the opposite sex and being in close quarters with them. If a man doesn't trust me or respect my independence, he isn't going to be my man. That was a huge reason why my engagement ended, he couldn't handle me being gone and since we were together all the time before that the jealousy and controlling behavior never showed itself.

My aunt has for quite some time been happily married to husband number 4.

It can and does happen.

On the opposite side of that, a few years ago, I was sitting in on a deposition and came to find out that our client was on husband number NINE. She's still married, btw. Good luck whatever you do. You may be someone who is happier on their own. That's great if you know yourself that well. That really cuts down on the fights and such.

Wow, this thread took a turn somewhere - I didn't click in for a long time because of the "dating" title, but then I glance through and it turned into a singles vs. married thread! Reminded me of that SATC episode. I don't know, folks, all I got out of this so far is some of you need to get better friends and some need better taste in men. I know a whole bunch of happy, fun, cool married folks and some really miserable, lonely single folks. And just for the record, we don't find those single folks all that fun to go out with either, all they do is complain about their last boy/girlfriend, how they can't find a boy/girlfriend, how there are no good men/women left, etc. See? Turnabout's fair play, right? ;) :)

AGDee: thanks for the flipside of the Marriage. I want to know the good and the bad. I know every relationship is different and has its own issues, so thank you and *applause* for sharing your experiences.

Maybe it's not so much of controlling behavior as it is fear or a need to fill in the emptiness.

That's is another problem with us as humans and not just men. Your mate will be gone for extended periods and around the opposite sex. How does one cope with that unless both of your careers parallel causing the both of you to do the same. I think, and I could be wrong, this may be a part of why some military marriages either succeed or fail based on who gets left behind and how they cope with it.

I think you're right. Obviously, because there is at least one married couple that I enjoy hanging out with. And I definitely have some miserable single friends.

I guess that's my silver lining for moving away to Chicago and putting 8 hours between me and these friends.

Exactly! It definitely works both ways - I think the people who constantly talk about their courtships are generally the people who constantly talk about themselves anyway; more of a "self-absorbed" thing than a marriage thing.

And! These will be the same people who talk about their kids all the time.

I think a lot of it comes down to not having much of a life outside of the relationship. You don't have a lot of other things to talk about; ergo, you talk about the relationship all the time. I have a few friends--single and married--who are guilty of this.

Yep. And like you said, they're the heli-moms of our future.

First they have nothing to talk about except wedding, then they have nothing to talk about except hubby, then kids, then it's their kid's ACTIVITIES they become obsessed with because well, there's nothing left.

Well he had considered going into the military, which actually would have worked out well. He got scary mean and controlling, and I think he resented me for being the reason he was in a small town (though I would have been done with my career change education if I hadn't supported him through graduate school). He did and said a lot of things within a week of me going to the field that were huge red flags, and I am glad I got out.

As much as I would love to have a husband one day, that sounds really appealing. I have always said that there would be "our" room and "my" room. It could be a study, a sunroom, a walk-in closet, whatever, but I need one enclosed space where I can have me-time. I have always been horrible at sharing and true love probably won't change that. :p


I love doing free things on dates, so the quality of my recent dates have been awesome. Walking on the beach, watching sunsets over the bay....priceless (literally). I don't think the economy's even really hit me that hard...I'm a student so I was poor before things went south. :cool:

lol that's why I like having my horses, I can always go to the barn to escape for some quiet time if I need it :) BF is allergic to horses so he only comes out for horse shows and during the summer when he can spend the time outside the barn.
On the flip side BF and I have had to compromise because he is a neat freak and I am not by any means so he's learned to live with everything a bit messier and I've learned to keep things cleaner (at least when he comes to visit).

As you so aptly said, we haven't noticed any change in our dating since both of us are poor students :p it's like the country song (I can't remember which one) "wall street fell but we were so poor that we couldn't tell"

^^^Mmmm....a loft full of soft, sweet-smelling hay....horsey noises in the background. I dig. :cool:

This is why I insisted on two bedrooms for live-in and me when we were looking for our apartment. We share a bedroom, sure, but the second bedroom is pretty much all mine, I keep clothes in there, I go in there to read, I crash in there on nights where I end up pacing (or on GC) all night and don't want to come in and wake him up mere hours before he has to be up for work.

That might change once we get married and have kids, but I don't think it will. I was spoiled as one of two children. I always had my own room. I liked living in the dorms and then in on campus apartments but once I got the chance to have my own bedroom I took it, no matter how small the space (and seriously in the sorority house my bedroom fit a twin bed, me, and a tiny desk with a tiny computer - my clothes had to go in another room). I don't need it all the time but I do like that I have my own space.

I loved living by myself when I was in grad school.

I think separate bathrooms is a very good idea too. I can't stand the mess in the bathroom. The whiskers in the sink, the bad "aim" issues, the amount of hair in the shower..ick! We tried to split household duties when we first got married and I asked him to choose which rooms he was going to clean. He picked one of the bathrooms and, since it was the only shower in the house, I had to use the shower, but I used the other bath to do my hair, makeup, and to use the commode most of the time. Several years later, he says to me "We need a new toilet upstairs". And I say "Why? Is it broken?" and he says "It's brown". I blinked, stared and said "Have you tried cleaning it?" I handed him a bottle of bleach and guess what? The toilet was like new again and he still has the same toilet now, 10 years later!

The first weekend that I had to work after we got married (I worked every third weekend then), he called me at work and asked "How do I turn the dryer on?" Yes, 30 years old and had never worked a dryer. He knew how to cook two things, eggs and toast. He called me once at work (again on a weekend) to ask me how to make macaroni and cheese.. Kraft, from a box, because my daughter wanted it for lunch. The whiskers in the sink, stuck to the shaving cream and solidified were so gross. He left doors and drawers open all the time. His dresser was on my side of the bed and he'd leave one drawer open, right at shin level. I went to bed after him so I'd sneak in, trying to be quiet and WHAM, right in the shin. Then he'd get mad cuz I woke him up! I'm a snooze alarm person and a very deep sleeper, but he is not. He would turn the alarm off before I even heard it and I'd wake up way late. I have to say, he has made great strides in the housework and cooking arenas. He had to, since he has the kids every other week. I taught him to cook before I left. He really liked this baked, breaded chicken that I used to make and he makes it regularly now. I never liked it that much, so I don't make it much. A couple years after we got divorced, my daughter said "You should ask daddy how to make his chicken, it's really good" and I said "Who do you think taught him how to make that chicken?" LOL

He does have deep seated issues that prevent him from being capable of the type of emotional intimacy that marriage requires. This came out during marriage counseling. I understand where his issues are, but I can't live with them. Had he made any real effort to work through them, we may have been able to make it. Every time the marriage counselor tried to address them though, he stopped going. A few months later, I'd tell him I was going to file for divorce and he'd beg me to stay, promise to go to counseling again and we'd go again. Then the same thing would happen. He's still searching for something that has to come from within him, but he seeks it externally. He still hasn't worked through those issues. I feel sorry for him because he cannot find his inner peace but at the same time, he's not willing to face the painful things he has to face to find it. Because of his childhood experiences, he never learned the basics of a family being a cooperative unit. In his experience, it is "each man for himself". That simply doesn't work in a marriage and is very hard to see while you're dating because it just doesn't come up in the same ways. In a private session, the counselor explained to me that he is only capable of a certain level of emotional intimacy. When I tried to move in closer, he would back off. When I backed off, he moved in closer, but that same distance was always maintained. When dating, it was an acceptable distance. For marriage, it was not.

We get along surprisingly well for ex-es. He told me months ago that "much to his chagrin", I am probably his best friend. Until money issues related to the kids or his selfishness impacts me or the kids, we can get along fine. Our occasional fights are always about money or his selfishness. I work hard to coach both him and the kids so that their relationships with each other remain good.

You said he lived at home until he was 30, right? It's not that surprising that he was used to being taken care of, was used to being enabled and didn't know how (or cared) to do things himself.

Seriously, younger ladies, learn this lesson -- if you meet a man who still lives with his momma well into (or past) his 20s, either run or expect to take care of him hand and foot. And moms with boys, please train them to be independent or at least do him (and the future women in his life) the favor of kicking his lazy behind out when he's grown and can take care of himself.