That's kinda where I'm stuck. If it was an abortion and abortion is legal, then it's not murder to finish the abortion.

Um, I don't think that just because the INTENT was an abortion, that this should not be considered murder. Every ethics class I've ever taken, including one that spent about 6 weeks debating the ethics of abortion, has taught me that even THE MOST LENIENT theories about when life begins say that it is at birth (well aside from some crazy theory that says we don't actually become human until age 2). This child was born, and then purposely left to die. =Murder to me.

LOL. Oh go ahead and disagree with me. My age is showing here -- I was in law school pre-Casey, and this isn't something I typically need to deal with work-wise. I thought in remembered that Casey modified the Roe-trimester framework somewhat but still left in intact. This is what I get for not going back and looking it up. Thanks for setting it straight.

Based on my experience, that is a wise approach with any type of group, whether pro-life, pro-choice or pro-/anti-anything.

I don't think anyone has picked on her, and I'm glad to see that she doesn't feel that way either. Many of us disagreed with one statement that she made (about society accepting this), and I, at least, did so to reassure her, not pick on her. But in any event, simply disagreeing with someone =/= picking on them.

BTW, I saw in the paper that the doctor's license was suspended.

We don't know that the baby was actually alive for long. A precipitous delivery with no neonatal staff present to resuscitate a 23 week baby would result in a very quick death by the baby. That is poor planning and unfortunate, but not murder. Disposing of the baby in the manner described was abhorrent. Does some poor office worker in an abortion clinic deserve to go to prison for murder because of poor judgement? If the baby had been born then cut into a million pieces, then yes, it would be murder. The baby in question would have died even if the worker had called 911. No one would have been able to intubate and resuscitate a
a baby that premature on a standard EMS team.

That's the same mindset I have - if a baby is viable at ? weeks and is wanted, there will be hundreds of thousands of dollars spent to keep that child alive. However, if that same baby isn't wanted, it's treated as biohazard material.

IMHO, it's two standards. This is either a child or not. There are measures taken to save a life or not. There shouldn't be an option of being wanted or not.

I had a friend whose wife delivered at 22 weeks, and the child is fine - now. They went through a year of hundreds of thousands of dollars for his care, and he became a March of Dimes poster boy. So, when I hear of a child being placed in a biohazard bag "coffin", please forgive me for shaking my head. I hope I never do understand that sort of logic.

I would think the test would be - was the baby stillborn (never took a breath, heart didn't beat) or was it born and then died?

I have to doubt the 22 week number. That is the limit of our medical ability to save premature babies. I also have to mention that treating a premature baby is up to the parents. If the mother refuses treatment, the baby will not be resuscitated. Does that happen often? No, because those women want their babies. Is it wrong to refuse to give consent to treat a severely premature baby since the outcome is most often very poor? In my opinion it is not. If I had a premature baby at 22 weeks, after seeing what happens to these babies, I would choose to let the baby die. Sometimes what can be done is not the same as what should be done.

I worked in the NICU at our local children's hopsital. I can recall seeing babies born at 20 weeks who were eventually discharged from the hospital. They went through hell, as did their parents and caregivers, but they did leave.

Maybe I missed it, but did the mother who was having the abortion realize the baby was alive? Has she spoke anymore about this? Can you imagine how she is feeling after all of this?

I'm sure you have, but they are in the minority of 20 weekers. And the majority have major deficits.

If she didn't want the baby in the first place, I'd figure she'd be feeling mission accomplished. Granted, women who have abortions often have a lot of emotions the come up after the procedure, but I'd imagine that she feels the same as if she'd had the abortion. I still don't see the difference. Abort in utero = the baby is a few inches from birth.

Haha, not a problem - and, depending on who you talk to, I think some people give Casey considerably less precedential weight, between the vastly-split plurality and the seeming contradictions throughout O'Connor's opinion.

I think it's kind of funny that Alito wrote the dissent from the Third Circuit's opinion in the case. But, that's just me being a complete nerd...

Yes, it is definitely the minority.


The way I look at all of this, is this baby was alive when it was delivered (supposed to be aborted). Was it going to need a lot of medical intervention? Heck yes. I don't know how any human being could do what was done.

I also want to know why a doctor could be so neglient, and just losing his medical license is not punishment enough in my book.

Oh I agree! The physician who was in charge is responsible for putting this woman in the position of delivering an unwanted pregnancy early with the dilemma of what to do. He should be severely reprimanded. I don't know what the laws say about giving these sorts of medications in the absence of the MD. However, even with an MD there, the baby would not have survived. As a live birth, however, it is not appropriate to dispose of it in the manner described. If there are no laws regarding this, there should be.

Florida probably has some law about dead body disposal, but come on--it's Florida! It's the most effed up state in the Union, with the exception of Mississippi and California!

That's totally sig-worthy!

The people I knew with the 22 week baby went through merry hell with him in the NICU for months. And while I know that he has "complications", I'm not sure what they are. I won't go into details, but they proved that they're trash - unbaby-related.

Are you referring to just our abortion laws or something else too? Being a native Floridian, I will agree that SOUTH Florida effed up the 2000 election....lol! :rolleyes:

This thread got feisty!