I don't believe that you'd be nervous regardless of how the wearer looks.

I was scared and pissed off when I was walking down the Vegas strip after Christmas and some arabs/palestinians/middle-easterners shouted "Death to Israel" to some Jews who were simply driving down the strip wishing people happy holidays and a happy new year (a nice gesture that had nothing to do with politics or current issues). Husband and I moved to the other side of the strip in both fear of something happening and fear of what we may say in anger to spark an argument/dispute.

I will stand up and support PM_Mama on this issue.

Exactly.

Terrorist attacks are a relative rarity, even moreso than the generally infrequent interracial homicide. But people's fears aren't based on the probability of being victimized. They are based on the perceived monstrosity of the incident and a fear of "the other." This is moreso the case with whites' fear of being victimized by blacks and many Americans' fears of being victimized by people of East Indian descent.

Realistically, people should be most fearful of those who look like them and of those who spend the most time around them, specifically family, friends, and personal and professional acquaintances. That sounds too much like right, though.

Apples and oranges.

The people that you are talking about were exercising their free speech (in English) in a manner that was overtly confrontational and meant to incite negative emotion. "We will not be silent" is not so clear and is being interpreted as saying something that it may not. If that tshirt had said "gummy bears are awesome" in Arabic, people would have still been afraid. "Gummy bears" would have been interpreted as a code word for suicide plane bombers.

Says who she or anyone else has to defend their ideas or opinions on Greekchat.com? You dont have to agree with one's ideas or opinions. They have the right to those ideas or opinions. You can respectfully agree to disagree with them.

Then what's the point of discussion?

Agreeing to disagree is for the birds. It goes without saying that you won't change people's minds. The point is to understand different points of view. That requires clear and concise expressions of the points of view.

Where has anyone on GreekChat abridged anyone else's right to free speech?

And where has anyone been disrespectful?

Stop deflecting.

Lol welllll not exactly in this thread, except people ASSuming and making up stuff that's not posted but I expect it from that poster because I've seen him do it to others.

But I think you should say in this thread instead of on GreekChat... and if someone really doesn't like it there is some place else they can go... ;)

Well yeah, I almost added an asterisk and mention several NPHC and recruitment forums, but I figured I better be general. lol

and again the point I am making like a plane just flew right over you...let's work backwards here...

Turbans and red bandanas...I asked you simply because you brought up the 'red bandanas' thing which outside of LA gangs...I have never really heard of marking a terrorist....basically when you said it...it was already reaching.


Timothy McVeigh on the street - ummm...how would you know to be wary of him? This drives deep in the heart of what we are talking about as far as profiling...most people on the street that we walk past we have no clue unless they are overtly obvious as to what they are capable of doing. You wouldn't know what Tim was capable of doing just as much as you would know what the young man in this article is capable of.

When I read this article and when I read your reaction, the first thing that came to my mind was the scene from Harold and Kumar II

uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Rj0tZZxxcpc

and yes altho it was comedy, it plays so much to the truth that perception can be soooo overblown.


Elevators and claustrophobia - So that is your problem....you should have clarified that from the start.

Instead you come off soundling like you are a paranoid xenophobe.



PSsssst....if it makes you feel better I'm scared of white people too.......hehehe !!

They have a right to have those opinions.

That doesn't mean those opinions are right - no one has to defend their opinions, but if their opinions are poorly formed, based on something other than logic (like, oh, prejudice or fear or hate or ignorance), or otherwise wrong (both in the sense of "incorrect" and "not right"), there's no reason not to challenge those opinions.

You can choose whether or not to defend your thoughts/opinions/beliefs, but it's actually quite immature to say "But it's MY OPINION! I have a right to an OPINION!" as some sort of absolute defense to others questioning you. That's not how it works, and the faster we can disavow ourselves of this myth, the better discussion and communication will become.

This post should be stickied somewhere by itself.

Question: Was this guy arrested? Was he not allowed to fly? Or was he simply asked to change his shirt? Keep in mind, this doesn’t change my opinion about this matter any, but if he was only asked to change and/or cover his shirt, what’s the point? The guy could have put on a sweatshirt, but still hijacked the plane just as easily as if he was only wearing the original shirt.

Now, another question: What if a homosexual walked on a plane, wearing a shirt that said, “We will not be silent” in rainbow colors. What would you interpret that to mean? Would you expect that person to cover their shirt, also?

People will argue, as they already have, “But 19 homosexuals didn’t try to hijack planes before.” That’s nice. Who cares? Either way you look at it, you’re judging people based on what other people have.. or haven’t done. Who’s to say that particular homosexual doesn’t have 18 of his buddies waiting at other airports, ready to take over some planes? But because you looked at the darker-skinned man next to him and judged only him because of his shirt, thousands of people will still die.

This is racial profiling, no matter how you look at it.

People here keep saying, “Well this Muslim did this, and that Arab did that, and this was bad, and that's why I’m scared.” Yes, bad things happen because of bad people. And there are crazy people in this country who come from the Middle East. And there are crazy people in this country who grew up next door. THAT DOESN’T MEAN THAT EVERYONE OF THAT SAME RACE/ETHNICITY/POLITICAL GROUP ETC. ARE BAD PEOPLE. And if you do think this way, I would be led to believe that you think everyone is a bad person.

And yes, racial profiling happens in this country everyday. But that doesn’t make it right.

So, if you want to live your life in fear of every person that you walk by on the street, that’s fine. Go ahead... worry 24 hours a day and think that the person next to you is always out to get you. But don’t interrupt other people’s lives doing it.

Hmm. You don't think recent Israeli activities in Palestine would have anything to do with their sentiment, huh? Could you tell whether or not they were Palestinian? (Wearing garments, usually scarves or headscarves that are white and black checked with red, black, and green accents?) Regardless of whether or not they were Palestinian, Palestine holds religious significance for Muslims, Jews, and Christians, and honestly I don't think any one world group has any more of a legitimate claim to the area.

The day after New Years, my friend and I went shopping down on Michigan Avenue. There were probably 500-700 Palestinians that were protesting Israeli activity against Hamas and US support of those airstrikes. What worried me more than their chants of "Free Palestine!" were the Israelis across the river. Who were shouting at the Palestinians. And it's not like they were shouting "excuse me you're wrong hi look at us let's reason..."

It reminded me of those videos of Obama supporters at McCain rallies or McCain supporters at Obama rallies.

ETA: I realize that I'm a little misleading with the scarves/headscarves thing. They don't wear them all the time. And the headscarves thing is usually for higher ups. Normally what you'll see is a checked (looking) strip of cloth worn around the neck. If the group is big enough (I'd say 4-5 or more) you'll usually see at least one of these cloth things. I wish I could describe them better. The women will be wearing regular headscarves (in solid colors).

Agreed 100%. Somehow the idea has developed on this site that a person has a right to state their opinions, but those who disagree have no right to do so. Where that came from, I don't know.

If you're going to air your opinions in public, and, specifically, if you're going to announce your opinions on controversial subjects, you have to expect that there will be someone who will disagree with you. If you can't accept that, then I don't know what to tell you.

Thanks for clarifying (on both). I didn't know that was case, and I probably would be a little more aware of the people around me.

Nope I haven't. Just like I don't get nervous about the people on the plane around me. I DO get scared thinking the plane is going to malfunction & crash, but not that anyone is gonna hijack the plane.

The ONLY way her father could be Pakistani and Arab is if he was 1/2 & 1/2 (1/2 pakistani, 1/2 Arab). Pakistani people are NOT Arabs. If he is Arab, then you are probably right that's he's Palestinian.

Yeah I mentioned that to TP the first time she talked about it, and she didn't care. She said it didn't matter whether they were "Palestinian or Arab." But actually it does matter, because of the Palestinian sentiment towards Israel.

Unless he is Arab and lived in Pakistan. I need to talk to her about it cuz now I'm confused. I do know that wherever it is out there, he married a woman from there (friend's step-mother) and she visits often and doesn't speak much English.

The red bandana thing... I shouldn't have said bandana. It was the red strip of fabric thing that they tyed around their head before taking over. It could have a real name, not sure.

I would just think that although many Arabs from all over the Middle East don't like or appreciate Israel, the more likely candidates to be yelling "death to Israel" would be Palestinians.

I don't know that this is something specific to one's closeness to the situation, or that it makes PM_Mama's situation that much different than a number of people...I would imagine there are anti-American elements in a lot of cities, and heck, the planes went right through Boston where KSigRC, myself, and a bunch of other members of this board were going to school. Not to mention the members of the board who were living in NYC at the time, or who lost family members and friends on 9/11...

On a somewhat unrelated note - I always wonder about the difference in feelings by people who lost loved ones on 9/11, and those who did not. In my immediate circle of friends and acquaintances (those who lost friends and family, and those who were living in NYC or working near Ground Zero) have tended to hold softer lines on this kind of stuff than others. In other words, they're the ones who wouldn't mind sitting on an airplane with someone like this claimant.

I often wonder whether my friends are a representative group in that regard. It's not to say that each person is entitled to their own opinions on these things, but I always thought that the split in feelings among my friends was interesting.

Does it look more like this (a Keyyifeh):

http://images.lhepjhaydrei.multiply....qd%2BNg&nmid=0

or

this (sometimes called a Shemagh or a ghutra an iqal):

http://www.topics-mag.com/internatl/...s/SAUDDRM2.JPG

FWIW, the top one was what I was trying to describe, but the Palestinian protesters that I saw the other day weren't wearing it across their faces, it was too thin.

It's not a "terrorists only" thing.

Did they wear it around their head or neck? A lot of my Arab friends have a Keyyifeh (and the Saudi guys wear the red one) and they definitely aren't terrorists.

If I remember correctly (from what i've been told) its more of a sentimental thing. You wear it as a sign of protest against how Palestinians are treated (and yes by Israel). That is why there was a lot of controversy when Urban Outfitters, Rachael Ray, etc came out wearing something similar to it.

The black and white checked one around the neck. They had red, black, and green accents near the fringe. I should have looked up a picture when I was posting about them the first time but I was lazy. I've seen Saudis wearing the red one as pictured.

It's not terribly threatening unless someone lets their imagination run away with them.

I was simply answering the "How do you know..." question. Every couple months there is a news story about someone being arrested for channeling money to militant terrorist groups (not just al Qaeda, but also Hezbelloh and Hamas, etc.)

You do bring up some good questions.

Nope it was pretty much a red fabric that they tide around their head. I saw it on both movies, United 93 and Flight 93. It's when they all look at each other, tie them on their heads and that's when people on the plane know that something is wrong. I've never seen it other than on the movies.

Found it! This is what the protesters were wearing around their necks:

http://jerusalem-gate.netfirms.com/s...images/s02.jpg

Then that's probably your answer. It was something the movie producers created to add some "drama" to the movie.

Heyyyyyy Mister Keyyifeh man..... what's your sign? :)

Wow...did I call it or what?

i think that's the point here. we as a country haven't bothered to learn his language. we're scared because we don't understand it. that's not his fault...

I'd really hope that they wouldn't make something up in a movie like that.

Really? Neither were hailed as documentaries, right?

Seeing as how all the people on that flight are deceased, you don't really know what happened (aside from the recorded phone calls). So most of the movie was conjecture.

I thought I read it in the transcripts between Todd Beamer and the operator he was talking to, when he was describing the men. I also thought it was only one guy.. the one with the "bomb" strapped to him. But, they have taken creative license. I've watched/heard/seen/read so much about that day, the movies get jumbled with the reality.

I do think it's very difficult to ascertain what is "suspicious" behavior in this type of situation. If someone ever feels another passenger is acting suspiciously, it needs to be addressed. I think it probably would have been sufficient to ask him what his shirt meant.

I don't know - this seems like couched crap to me (and I don't mean that as a personal attack or anything, it's just illustrative of a mindset that I think is becoming pervasive that I don't like - I'll elaborate...).

It seems like we have to have it one way or another - either this type of 'suspicious' behavior (of which being Muslim and wearing a shirt with Arabic writing is, um, probably not a good example to start, but bear with me for purposes of illustration) should be dealt with in a strong fashion, such as detainment or in-depth questioning, or we have to admit this just isn't suspicious and move on, because the 'middle ground' option of "Please, sir - what does your shirt say?" seems like the least efficacious and most insulting of all possible options.

I don't know- that's just my initial impression. I could probably be convinced otherwise, but initially, it seems like we're saying "I'm leery, but I realize it's wrong to do anything about it, so I'll espouse fear while giving a very neutral suggestion to fix." Doesn't it really have to be all or nothing, so to speak? Am I missing something?

Lets keep this in perspective, a young man who wore this...minding his own business

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...8_arabicap.jpg



and lets not forget this gem from MIT

http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ap_fa..._070921_mn.jpg

The Fake Bomb Shirt

Now remember she PURPOSEFULLY was seeking attention:

"She said that it was a piece of art and she wanted to stand out on career day," State Police Maj. Scott Pare, the commanding officer at the airport, said at a news conference. "She claims that it was just art and that she was proud of the art and she wanted to display it."


....at the F*CKING AIRPORT????

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3635225&page=1

which bothers you more....?

You're right. I thought maybe it was in the description from Todd Beamer.

This chick bothers me more. Free spirit my ass. I feel like that's making fun of a national tragedy. Why the HELL would anyone do that? (the part about her walking around barefoot on campus kinda grosses me out too)

All of this kinda reminds me of when a friend of mine decided it'd be ok to wear a tshirt with a huge marijuana leaf on the front (kinda like an Adidas logo shirt) and got pulled over by customs on his way either into or out of Canada. He got pulled over strictly because of the shirt.

on a sort of a sidenote....

I remember hearing never to become 'a walking advertisement' because of perception...moreso if you have NO CLUE as to what you are wearing or whose face you have on your clothes.

Just the same as people I have seen wearing Che or Malcolm or Tupac or even a football jersey simply because 'it's cool' or 'racy' with no bearing as to what other people are going to do.

I believe that the guy in question had no intentions of causing a riot or pissing people off because he probably had a good idea of the purpose of what his shirt stood for when he bought it.

Now the MIT lady...quite a different tangent...she may be a free spirirt, but a shirt like that is provacative and again she is probably lucky to be in one peice...wearing that TO an airport post 9/11 is a recipe for disaster.

Something else to consider: When watching movies, what do would be terrorists in the movies do?

TRY HARD AS HELL TO BLEND IN.

PM...the overarching lesson in this is as I stated before, we cannot dare ASSume that just because someone looks different or more succinctly, looks similar to those who have done us harm are OUT to cause harm because sometimes the main ones out to do are those who look like us as this was pointed out earlier.

Moreso, some of those fears we have, we must get over and move on lest we let our paranoia get the best of us.


I can't tell you what to do about the elevator...but I can say that you walk a fine line when you profile people.

You know what, if you have never seen it before, rent Crash.

Seriously.

Interesting article
 

Loved this comment here and it speaks volumes:

Not only did security at JFK assume that Jarrar was potentially dangerous because of his shirt, they also assumed that making him remove the shirt would do away with the danger.