Yes, but I think your reasoning is pretty stable compared to others.

Black Acting School!!! :D

Cleland!!! The Promise Land!!!

Middle and high schools in a number of states already require students to complete a certain number of community service hours in order to be allowed to graduate. Obama's suggested plan doesn't sound too far off from what's already occurring.

And I'm mad that in the little time I was trying to post, y'all blew up the thread.

My state does for high school students.

Thanks Dr.Phil... ;)

I would gladly serve if called upon.

No you wouldn't according to SOME people, because you have a funky attitude and you have better things to do. And you don't want to be a slave... LOL ;)



Not to mention that didn't or are you already serve/ing in our Armed Forces?

That's better than many of the folks around here... :rolleyes:

I was required to do them in the state of FL. If you did a certain amount it provided you with a special cord at graduation. You also needed a certain amount to be considered for Bright Futures Scholarship (seeing as how almost EVERY instate kid I know has this, there are a LOT who did it!)

I also had to do them in middle school as well. Was it annoying? Yes. But I'll never forget my wonderful summer before my senior year where I spent over 300 hours at a working-class area Boys and Girls Club helping children 7-10 focus on improving their reading skills. Yes, I did it because I was "forced", but there was a lot of benefit in it for both myself and those kids. Would I claim the experience to be the equivalent of slavery...um no.

And I wouldn't mind doing some sort of mandatory basic training either. It would probably get rid of these 5 extra pounds I'm carrying around and provide me with a new and enlightening experience. It's not like I (or any of my recently graduated friends) have a real job right now anyway, what with this economy the way it is.

But being "called upon" is not volunteerism, is it?

Contrast this idea the development of the Peace Corps, and the call for voluntary service.

What makes this a particularly bad idea is that America is a land of liberty. That means free choice, and yes, accepting the consequences of that choice. Which means leaving open the choice NOT to participate. Most may agree that morally, serving is the "right" thing to do, but choice is fundamental part of liberty.

And accepting the consquences could be a bureaucratic nightmare in itself. You can't graduate if you don't contribute 50/100 hours? To what? You're talking about making government bigger to "enforce" volunteerism.

And I can envision the courts becoming involved over disputes between what is and what isn't community service .....

A good idea, in theory only.

Maybe I misunderstood something, but I don't think Obama is going to come after people's 401K. Where are you gonna hide it? Under a matteress? Good luck with that... lol

Way to start an inflammatory thread (with a GREAT title by the way) and not have credible sources to back it up except someone's myspace post.

I'm pretty sure the middle class americans that would get the tax break are those that are hardworking.

Just because you don't make over $250K a year does not mean you are not hardworking.

Either that, or I'm one lazy-assed turd.

My high school as well as the other two in the town had mandatory service projects that had to be completed or you would not graduate. Obama's idea is NOT a bad one, as it's done in many high schools currently. Also I think it would help a lot of kids to see a different part of society that they aren't typically exposed to.

Just because an idea isn't a bad one doesn't mean it's a legitimate function of the government, especially the federal government. But the wording has already been changed to make this a goal rather than a requirement, so it's hardly forcing anyone to do anything.

ETA:Here’s a cached page with the “required” language.
http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:...lnk&cd=1&gl=us

Here’s the changed version with the current “set a goal” language:

http://change.gov/americaserves/
(both these were linked on Instapundit.com)

EATA: I think it's kind of interesting that the second also suggests remuneration for the work for the college kids, which didn't seem to be in the first one.

Obama's living up to change already.:p Way to go, website editors!

i had mandatory community service growing up...it was called my parents! every summer my sisters and i had to volunteer and do something, instead of sit on our behinds for three months. i think it is a really good idea to do it for college tuition credit or however they want to do it...with the way things are going, a lot of these kids are going to need it for school!

You got to this first. Thanks!

Can you spell flip-flop?

Can you spell bitter old hag?

HAHAHAHA....

This is funny....and appropriate for this thread. LOL!!!


http://www.236.com/video/2008/get_yo...orde_10121.php

Look, I'm going to ignore the rest because I'm incredibly hung over and you don't deserve the kind of irate rant that would follow, but seriously, take another second and read your note above again.

Seriously - you have a problem with COMMUNITY SERVICE? Even if compulsory, the kids get to pick what they do - so it's not like they're forced to help X, Y or Z (where X/Y/Z are communities you find distasteful), they're allowed to clean dishes at the country club if they want. This isn't a bad thing, unless you're absolutely and irrevocably irrational.

I think one could have a rational problem with any new federal program without a clearly defined purpose. Your point about washing dishes at the country club kind of points out how useless this could turn out to be. It might actually be destructive, displacing lower wage employees.

I don't have a problem with tying currently existing federal assistance for higher education to community service in areas of specific need. As far as middle school and high school, if a local board wanted to set it up, okay. Or if it's offered as sort of the old Presidential Physical Fitness Awards program in the area of community service, it's hard to see it doing any real harm or having any really big costs.

But it's not irrational to question exactly what and how.

I've been supportive of something like this since I first learned of Israel's program. In that type of system, everybody does 2 years of something, whether military or community service. If someone is not eligible for the military due to health reasons, they can do community service. The biggest problem is funding it, as is the case with everything that sounds like a good idea. I think our society is the most selfish that it's ever been. In the words of JFK.. "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

Most of the schools around here require community service hours to graduate. I don't see these types of programs taking away jobs from anybody.

I am floored by the number of people who keep saying "Oh great, now my taxes are going to be raised." None of the people I've heard say that make anywhere near $250K a year. As my ex-husband was grumbling, I looked at him and said "If you're making over $250K, then you're not paying me enough child support" and he got this look on his face and said "Yeah, I guess I'll worry about when I make that much, which is never.." LOL

Not all schools require community service to graduate.

Mine encouraged it to the point that the principal thought it was more important than academics- but did not require it. It was only required to belong in NHS. Everyone knew that was the real reason why I did it.

I did not read about this till today. But I am seething. Not only I do not like being told what to do- but this would be a logistical nightmare. One of the beautiful parts of volunteer work is the CHOICE to do it. Regardless of the intent behind it- which is only up to the supreme being to judge- one needs to make the decision on your own free will. Not be imposed by the government. Forced labor is ILLEGAL.

Not to mention this would be a logistical nightmare. For the schools and for the students as well. Unless it were extremely well organized with a person in charge of this at every school, it would be very difficult to do.

Obama has not even been inaugurated- and he already did something for me to dislike him.

Don't blame me, I voted for McCain!

I'm just guessing, but I think you mean high schools requiring community service and I suspect that most of it gets done with organizations that have always done community service, like the Boy Scouts, Girls Scouts, Beta Club, church groups, etc. It'd be interesting to know how many more kids do it than did before the schools required it and how well the community is served.

And I also suspect that what is currently required is a relatively small number of hours done by a relatively small numbers of schools, compared to the number of schools you would have involved if you had a universal program. It could be incredible in terms of the benefits to society or could be a huge resource suck, depending on the requirements for administration and documentation of the program.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with community service. There could in practice be a lot wrong in how this gets done. Since the language has now shifted to merely setting a goal of the relatively small number of hours for a year, I'm not thinking it's going to amount to much but maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.

(The job loss thing was just in response to the dish washing example. I honestly expect the increase in community service to be so small scale that it wouldn't really matter in the labor force. What I see with kids at my high school is that they do things they'd do anyway, but they just track the hours.)

I'm not sure that you can compare the Israeli program to what you could expect to see in the US, for a lot of reasons.

I think the big problem here is that we in the US have traditionally reserved community service for two reasons, these being:

1). Someone has a genuine desire to help others, or

2). Someone gets in trouble with the law and receives community service as a PUNISHMENT.

When I think of someone being mandated to do community service as a requirement of anything that is mandatory, such as high school, then it comes off as a punishment. College is different because people don't have to go to college - it is a privilege. However, since children are forced to be in high school until 16, I don't like rules and requirements that force them to do more. If it was just a goal, no big deal...but if there are punishments for not doing it, then that needs to be looked at.

A lot of people have been saying stuff like, "It's community service! That is great for the country so why shouldn't this be okay? You should want to help the community!" That sounds the same to me as saying, "Why don't you like the Patriot Act? Do you have something to hide?" It doesn't matter whether you do or don't, or whether service is beneficial or not. It comes down to personal freedoms.

I voted for Obama.

For high school students, all you would really need a log sheet that they turn in to their counselor with their graduation portfolio. As they do service, they get someone to sign off. It doesn't have to be a huge deal. It could be anything from shoveling snow for an elderly neighbor, volunteering at a local pet shelter, helping at the church when it's their Christnet week, etc. And yes, my kids, through Scouts, do far more than 40 or 50 hours of service a year. I have demonstrated an importance for community service to them and they are always eager to do service. I think they get a lot of self esteem from it in addition to learning more about people less fortunate than they are. There are also community service clubs in their high school. I believe the one my daughter joined is called Interact. I was a candy striper through high school because, at the time, I thought I wanted to be a doctor and thought it would be good for med school apps. While volunteering in the PT department, I got exposed to Occupational Therapy and discovered that OT was a great combination of all the things I wanted to do at some point (teaching, medical field and psychiatry/psychology). The things one learns about themselves while helping others are invaluable.

The type of program Israel has is what I would like to see here, but as I said, the funding would be impossible. There is an Americorps (City Year Detroit) that works out of my building and I think what they do is great. They don't work for free, although the stipend they get doesn't come close to military pay either. I see a lot of college students wandering aimlessly through their first two years of college trying to figure out what to major in, etc. who end up taking 6 years to graduate because they change their major so many times. Having a couple years to do some service and find out more about who you really are and where your true interests and skills lie wouldn't be a bad thing for those kids either.

If all the high school kids need is to turn in a log sheet, I don't think you will see any appreciable benefit to the community. The kids will track more hours, but I don't hold out much hope that they will actually do more hours.

Sure, I think every high school kid could probably find ways to do 50 authentic hours of service a year. A big group though won't even attempt it, if it isn't mandatory. And another appreciable group will just do a better job tracking every thing they could possible "count," without actually making much of sincere effort to serve. So you're left with the kids who have already been doing service in their families, Scouts, clubs, etc.

A big optional public service initiative probably not going to hurt anything. And it might actually make kids more aware of opportunities that they do have, but I think it can either be a "goal" with little reward or consequence to the kid or to society or it can be a large scale program that's either required or rewarded in a way that makes it more likely that people will participate but will also drive up the cost of the program. Neither one is something I feel like we need federal intervention to do.

As you noted, we've got programs right now that would meet some of the needs and benefits if kids would elect to participate.

Look, I think President Obama's plan is probably to shore up Americorps and/or CityYear programs for middle/high schools students. If kids want $4000 to go toward a collegiate education, they can do some odd hours of community service. If that means wearing orange vests and picking up trash at the park/street, then, that's what it means.

If that means, "candy striping"/Habitat for Humanity/clerical filing work, etc. young people really need "directions" of that of stewardship and service...

If they don't want the money or reduction in student loan debt, they don't have to give of their time during college. The Feds currently do this for other programs. If you take the money, you must do the duty. That's the incentive. The government cannot have an unengaged collecting resources citizenry. It's unfair to those citizens who are engaged in some form.

For:

“I would define liberty to be a power to do as we would be done by. The definition of liberty to be the power of doing whatever the law permits, meaning the civil laws, does not seem satisfactory.”

"If we do not lay out ourselves in the service of mankind whom should we serve?"

~President John Adams, 2nd President of the US.

How do you figure that? When I was in high school, the only groups that did community service were the National Honor Societies (NHS, Spanish NHS, French NHS, etc). In all those groups we had log sheets, where you wrote down what you did, the hours you were there, and then you got the person in charge of the community service to sign off (plus their telephone number to be reached at).

I remember thinking that 50-100 hours of community service was a lot for a whole year until I realized what was considered "community service." I was in a dance group at the time (ballet folklorico) and any performance we had counted as community service. We used to have at least 3-5 performances a month. So in the 9 month span, I racked up anywhere between 20 to 50 hours just in dancing. Not to mention we got hours for making holiday/birthday baskets for custodians, or volunteering as candy strippers.

I remember I always had fun volunteering at an elementary school's Halloween carnival. Shoot playing games w/ kids, eating candy, dressing up, scaring kids, etc was the best way to spend 5 hours.

I do think that it will be hard to get people to do the community service, especially in areas (like mine) where none are required. But to say that it's "forced labor" or whatever is a little far fetched.

ETA: i think that there are many good things in mandating community service, but at the same time I think people will lose the "thrill" of voluntarily volunteering. People will see community service as just something they HAVE to do instead of something they WANT to do. I've always found it impressive when someone in MS/HS says they volunteer at so-and-so, I wouldn't feel the same way if it was mandated.

Um high school is all about requirements you need certain grades to pass a class and move up and graduate, its not forced you can choose not to go to class or do your homework or take the tests and as a result not graduate. You would also have that option with community service. I can't understand why the idea of having young adults do community service is a bad thing???

I'm not worried about the forced labor aspect particularly. I think it would nearly impossible to go that route. But as long as we were sure there was a compelling reason for the federal government to do it and could figure out a way to accomplish it, I don't know that it would be terrible. I've got little problem with the idea of a wartime draft. If there were a comparable need domestically, I guess compelling service is as valid. But I don't think there current is a comparable domestic need and I don't see a compelling reason to try to implement a big federal community service program. And fortunately, it doesn't look like Obama does either.

My thinking about the log sheets is tied into what you said about how much stuff counted. Too many things that kids already do, IMO, which may or may not really serve anyone but their immediate circle, "count" even though the benefit to the community is relatively slight.

And this may also shock those among us who are trusting, but some kids make stuff up. If all you have to do is turn in the log, I think some kids are going to embellish or exaggerate what they've really done. You were required to turn in phone numbers, but unless someone actually take the time to verify, what does it really matter?

I know kids in my community who count a one day service project as their church confirmation project, their Beta Club hours, and document it apply to NHS, so I'm a little unimpressed with logging hours for Obama too.

Again, comparison with the Patriot Act: You have the option to not do bad things, so why would you possibly be upset that someone is spying on your telephone conversations and seeing what you check out at the library? That can't possibly be a bad thing if you are doing the right things!

The point here is that there is a difference between getting a diploma which states that you have a certain level of knowledge and being forced to do community service. That has nothing to do with book learning, which is what school is for. Also, I agree with people who say that it takes away from the POINT of VOLUNteering. As in, voluntary.

Haha...we should rename it compulsateering!

If this is what were happening, I wouldn't have posted.

Instead, the OP comparing this to "slavery" (in any form) shows an irrational belief in what is really being proposed - even connecting this to the draft is laughable. You really think the Democrats are the ones looking to institute a draft? Come on. It's fear-mongering and, to a certain extent, race-baiting.

I'm as skeptical as any, in the traditional mold of the Skeptics - questioning is fine, this is not. To put it another way, I'm not enslaved by the "limited" selection at a grocery store if I'm hungry, and to claim otherwise is disingenuous at best.

It's President-Elect.

I can't wait until someone's community service involves faith-based anti-choice counseling. Or Eddie Eagle classes. Or community organizing for a cause against one of his causes.

Just sayin'

Ahaha soo true! some of my friends would do that. They'd go do community service for an hour or two, have the person sign the log sheet, and then later go back and change the hours from "one" to "seven" or something like that.

Lightning bolt missed, eh?

I can't see community service as a mandatory requirement for graduation at high schools across the country being a good idea... at least not right now.

I went to a public high school. At the time, it was the only one in a city of close to 100,000 people. We were hovering at around 3,500 students, and that didn't even include the 9th grade (as there was no room for more students in the building).

I started my freshmen year (still in the junior high, but considered my first year of high school) with a class of approximately 1200 students. By the time I was nearing the end of my senior year, we had just under 900 students. On graduation day, there were about 600 students present.

There is already a ridiculously high number of students in this country that don't graduate. Why not focus on encouraging them to do better in school, instead of making it mandatory that everyone do extra work on top of classes and homework?

Personally, I would much rather have my taxes go toward things like new books, more counselors, and programs to assist those who need help in raising their grades.

To start, I think that community service should simply be MENTIONED to middle school and high school students. I know that I never volunteered until one of my teachers in high school talked about a program called Penny Pickers, a locally run community service project. Three of my friends and I signed up and participated. But I probably never would have done it otherwise.

The point is, to make this mandatory when the majority of the schools in this country don't even make it a point to offer any community service ideas or opportunities to students, seems like a pretty big jump.

Did you hear about programs that are paying students to get better grades....?

http://www.cbs46.com/news/15116950/d...=lnta&psp=news

Um.. yea.. I don't know about all that.

But take my brother, for instance. Growing up, he hated school. HATED it. He would lie any which way he could so that he wouldn't have to go. When he was there, he wouldn't pay attention. Homework was rarely done, and to see him study would be a very rare occurrence (if it happened at all).

But he's not a dumb kid by any means.

In his junior year of high school, he looked into joining the military. He requested information and took the basic entrance exam. He told my parents that's what he wanted to do, and he dropped out of school. He also never joined the military. He worked as a front-end manager at a grocery store, and then he worked at Wendy's. After two years, he kind of realized that there wasn't much else he could do beyond that with the limited education that he had. Basically, it was a huge wake up call for him.

He eventually got his GED, and he enrolled in community college. He's been there for two years now, and he's been on the Dean's List every semester. He studies all the time, and asks his girlfriend for help when he needs it. This January, he's starting at UMass.

There are a ridiculous amount of students that fall through the cracks because nobody takes the time to talk with them and make them realize how important school truly is. Paying them doesn't help the cause, but making them understand their potential does. Also, with the way some schools in this country are falling apart, I'd rather put money into those communities so that the basic education that is happening everywhere else, can be provided to everyone.

Not sure what anti-choice counseling is. But, volunteering with pro-adoption pre-natal care organizations would probably be acceptable. Obama isn't pro-abortion, he's pro-choice.