For this election, I'm just looking for someone-- ANYONE who doesn't have their head up their ass.

That is why, right now, I still don't know who I am voting for. :o

KSig and Ksig kid....

Both of you brought up very good points which in that case...the broad word of 'experience' alone without a clear and agreeable definition of what that is, good or bad, qualitive vs quantitive and whose judgement it is of what weighs the most in making 'experience' counts, renders discussing this subject, moot.

I don't see why it renders the discussion moot. It was a general question, asking for personal opinions on the subject; I don't think it was meant to start some debate on whether one type of experience matters more than another.

" without a clear and agreeable definition "

I think it does, is saying that we need to have a few guidelines in place...and to a degree, I agree...what qualities are we looking for that would have rendered past POTUS'es more or less experienced than others?

I mean starting with both Clinton and Bush, there are various degrees of their experience we could debate over and their final out come upon leaving office.

Basically as you said, it would be difficult to even have a general discussion without more detail....

So...would you like to think of some ideas?

and actually looking back on it, the title more or less does ask the very question...what do we consider 'experience'?

Political experience is important only in that it is the only way we, the voting public can look at a candidate and begin to guess what kind of a President that person will be. I don't think there is anything which can prepare someone to be the President of the United States except perhaps some sort of service in a high-level executive job which deals extensively with both foreign and domestic issues. In that vein, none of the candidates really have any experience.

When I look at McCain, for example, I have 35 years worth of a track record. I see a man who generally votes with the right-wing of the party, but is not afraid to occasionally break with the party to pursue his own agenda, McCain-Feingold, for example -- something most Republicans were strongly against. He also co-sponsored the much-dreaded 'comprehensive' immigration reform bill last year.

Unfortunately, McCain of 2007 doesn't look a lot like McCain of 2008. He hasn't to my knowledge repudiated McCain-Feingold, but, according to Media Matters, http://mediamatters.org/items/200808130004 he has since repudiated his former co-sponsoring of the immigration bill. I think this dash to the right wing of the party is a mistake which makes McCain look disingenuous.

I think what attracts me to McCain more than anything else (yes, I'm a cynic) is the fact that he's a Republican and that for the foreseeable future, both houses will be Democrat-controlled. 4 more years of gridlock is preferable to me when I think the wrong kind of change is the only other option (I say that in reference to the policies Obama would have a decent chance of getting passed, if elected).

On the other side of the ballot, we have Obama. I don't think the lack of experience is a terribly troubling item, and I think he's perfectly capable of doing the job and dealing with foreign leaders. I think he may have said a few naive things along the campaign trail re: foreign policy, but either President will have a bevy of national policy advisors to help him along, so this isn't a huge concern to me.

The most strikingly positive thing about Obama is that he is at the head of what looks to be one of the most well-run campaigns in our nation's history. Even if his message is crafted by the best in the political game, Obama can deliver it like no other. He's achieved this 'celebrity' status because of his ability to connect with people and be charismatic. By being part of such a well-oiled machine, Obama has shown that he either is an amazing leader, or has employed some amazing leaders to run this machine of his. I think that running the executive branch successfully takes many of the same qualities as running a good campaign, so I have no worries about his ability to step into the job on day one and be successful.

That said, I am not a fan of his stances on foreign policy, his tax code, his social security policies, his health care policies, or just about anything. My problem with Obama has nothing to do with the man and everything to do with his politics. I do, for what it's worth, think he's far and away the more genuine of the two candidates in that he probably believes what his writers are putting in his speeches. The new McCain is far and away, IMHO, more of the "empty-suit" between the two candidates.

The empty suit doesn't scare me as much as the liberal wing of the court having a solid majority though. There's a good chance that at least one conservative justice won't live another 4 years (an even better chance one doesn't make it 8 years) or that Kennedy retires. I prefer legislative gridlock, and perhaps a solid conservative majority on the court to any real 'change' proposed by either candidate.

Not to get too off topic, but I think it is more likely that Stevens, Ginsburg and Souter leave than Scalia (especially if Obama wins the election - I've read that Ginsburg would leave during the next Democratic term, and that Souter is eyeing retirement). The wild card would be Kennedy, but I could see him as being someone who would stay on the Court until they had to wheel him out.

I see (and respect) your point, but I can't agree with it. If judgment and character matter to me, I'm not voting for an "empty suit," which to me indicates choosing political expediency over character and the courage of one's convictions.

I think you're right. I don't see Roberts, Thomas or Alito -- all age 60 or younger -- going anywhere anytime soon. Meanwhile, Stevens is 88 and Ginsburg, whose health has not been good, is 75. Scalia and Kennedy are both 72, but provided his health holds out (and I know of nothing at this point to suggest it won't), I don't see Scalia retiring anytime soon, and probably not Kennedy either. Breyer (70) I don't know.

I think it's likely to be at least 2 or 3 more presidential terms before there is any real chance of the balance of the court shifting.

I read somewhere that Ginsburg will not retire during a Republican administration. She's still an extremely sharp questioner from the bench, so I could see her staying through the next administration (although I still think Scalia will stick around longer than her).

Part of me thinks Stevens will stick around to break Douglas' record on the bench; he too is still quite active during oral arguments, and his opinions are still sharp (no matter what you think of their outcomes), so hopefully he'll have a better end of the bench than Douglas or some of the other long-timers.

Like I said, judgment and character aren't the most important things to me and even if I was to stipulate that Obama had judgment and character in spades, I still wouldn't vote for him based upon the direction he'd take this country and the sort of folks he'd put on the bench.

With respect to the ages of the 4 typically liberal justices on the Court, I never even considered them as I'm not so worried about them being replaced by someone who would tend to vote the same way as I'm worried about one of the 4 conservatives (no, I don't think Kennedy is classifiable as anything) being replaced by someone who would give the liberals a solid 5/6 vote majority. Scalia is 72, as you said, so another 4/8 years might be iffy for him, and none of the justices are really young. Anything can happen, and that concerns me.

There is a clear and agreeable definition of "experience" - it's the application that we disagree upon, and that application can certainly be discussed among reasonable people because it is entirely personal.

There is no "right or wrong" or "good or bad" in this sense. If that invalidates discussion, then it invalidates all discussion over anything that is not quantitative, and discussion over quantitative items should actually be moot (since, presumably, the data will speak for themselves).

I would imagine Scalia has a similar plan as Ginsburg, in that he's not going to leave the bench unless he believes that his replacement will be someone who subscribes to the same school of thought. Thomas, Alito and Roberts are fairly young, and I don't think any of them have any serious health problems (beyond Roberts' health concerns).

If Obama and Biden are elected, I think their first SCOTUS pick could be VERY interesting. Biden was one of the leaders of the charge against Bork, so I could see the Republicans putting up a big fight for just that reason.