I am trying very hard to be short and sweet. But it is hard... Let me put it like this so that folks can understand:

If these little girls were my kids and I found out that they did this... Hayle, they'd wish they could be sent to Juvenile Hall when I got through with them...

I would take them to see the sick who cannot control their bowel movements... And they would have to clean out bed pans...

'Cuz if they were my kids, I brought into this world, I can dayum sho take them out and make new ones just like them...

Short and sweet- and the right answer I think.

I think one thing that gets lost here is the guilt that the attacking kids will feel when they do far more damage than they thought.

That is better handled at home than dumping them in a strange environment and making them feel abandoned. Tough love is still love- and parents do that better than the penal system.

But it sounds like these kids do not have that parental direction... That guilt was not a factor in their minds when they acted out in rage and someone was hurt.

See, anger is a strong emotion. It makes one feel invincible, indestructible. One can have strength and energy from it--negative energy--but for the energy-less, it will do... The trick about anger though and acting on it, its energy can be dissipated RAPIDLY--it is a quick fix, a band-aid--a fast road to to perdition that never leads to peace and never to love. SLOW to anger... It is the person who can control that impulse that makes the difference...

The thing is it takes wisdom, sage, age, experiences, thoughtfulness, faith, hope and love...

I think folks, children, resort to anger and hate because they are easy emotions it is a primeval survival tactic. All of us have to be better than that...

As far as these kids, I had more fear of Mom than God... God was my savior. Mom, the disciplinarian. Dad on the other hand... All conversations were over when Dad got involved...

Same here with my Dad.

And while I agree with what you are saying, the big question becomes what happens when there is no Mom or Dad around to administer the tough love?

I really do think that a kid who feels alone in the world and turns to violence will be very unlikely to change from that course if they are just dumped in jail. That merely justifies their resorting to being "tough" as the only way to survive and have a sense of security.

The discussion I think needs to happen is this- "Who becomes the parent figure in the lives of kids who get in trouble and do not have birth parents willing to fill that role?"

And in that comes a multitude of secondary questions. What are the standards, if any? How can we be sure case by case evaluations are fair and accurate? Let's face it, a poor African-American child is far more likely to be considered "lost" than some wealthy white kid who commits an act of similar gravity.

Child neglect and mistreatment is such a hot button issue with me that I am not always able to discuss it rationally. I don't know why that is since I had a pretty good upbringing, but it gets to me.

I just turned off the TV and I was watching a forum discussion on race on MSNBC. During that forum, one of the participants told the story of a young African-American male who was in court for something he had done and the judge was telling him that he was lucky to be just 2 months shy of 16 since it meant he would go to juvie instead of being at risk for going to prison.

The young man replied that he didn't care where he went as long as it was not home.

That is terrifying.

And it is all the more worrisome given how American society is evolving. For the forseeable future, the US is becoming a country of enormous wealth and leadership driven by labor provided outside of the US.

This just widens the gap between the rich and the poor, and shrinks the middle class.

And in turn, that makes youth who make one mistake or are not raised by good parents all the more likely to fall into a position where they can never get ahead no matter how smart, ambitious or genuinely "good" they are.

Well, what you have just described has been going on for over 20 years in destitute neighborhoods... No responsible adult to administer love: be it tough or otherwise.

Video games. The internet. Myspace. Perverts. Hustlers. Pimps. Hos. Jerry Springer. Dope Dealers. Crack Addicts. Gamblers. Pedophiles. Those are the folks eager to take these children and destroy them...

Standards as parents? There are parenting classes. But you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink... If DSHS takes your kids away, you have to take some level of parenting classes. It would be nice to not have stressors in your life when one's poor. But, these booterrific problems have a way compounding...

As far as saying race: I don't really agree with all that. There are a bunch of problems with everybody's kids these days. Maybe the rich parents can get their kids out of trouble better than a poor parent(s). But the dividing line is less and less about race than it is about economics... Unfortunately, I am not deluded to think that 70%+ of the poor people are of various ethnic groups that have a darker complexion. But, where I am, I see similar kid problems everybody's community.


Well. This was how it was in 1992 before the LA Riots... I have heard this talk. There might be baptism by fire at higher stakes... I don't know. Kids have given up because how do you teach a child hope who have never seen any hope?

I think that NO ONE can compete with United States ingenuity. Folks cannot bootleg that, it cannot be outsourced, and it is all of us who engender the true nature of our American heritage and its founding--the only word I can come up with is ingenuity. That is not seen in other countries and even if they tried, it still would not taste right--like an Apple Pie, BBQ or hayle veggie burger ( ;) )...

Somehow, our connection to our children will be improved for all children. It might take a rooting out of the old and the coming in with the new. Or it may mean that we try something we don't like--i.e. military support--what are our wounded, but healed soldiers doing with their lives now? I am sure if asked they might step up and make many of kids proud... At least that has been my experience and opinion.

Hi AKA Monet,

When I mentioned standards- I was talking about the standards by which the government would decide when a child should be removed. I do think economics could end up playing an unfair role in that- hence my concern.

And fair point of you to note that this is an economic issue in general more than racial. I agree. The hypothetical I posed was driven in large part by the fact African-American status, on average, in the US is highly tied to economics, and not in a good way.

But most importantly, I love the hint of optimism in your posts on topics like this. It is very contagious- and thankfully so.

I think they should get stayed adjudication - make them spend a week in juvie (this seems like YEARS to kids that age) and do 100 hours of community service. If they go the next year passing all their classes with Cs or better, do the service, and otherwise stay out of trouble, nothing goes on their record. They eff up again, and they're going to have the adjudication on their record and do some more time in juvie.

While we are at it, let's take their 360's and PS3s from them and make them go out and play like normal kids too....


Let me ask...on a serious note....does anyone think that because kids absorb so much from the media nowadays (games, movies and tv) that it has stopped them from being on a high creative level and with the lack of actually playing with others, or joining in of simple social activities that this in part is giving a rise to the number of violent children?


i mean, that pent up energy sitting in from of the tube has to go somewhere....

Some Singapore caning wouldn't hurt either

A good question. The older I get, the more I resist the urge to talk about "the good old days" because I see that the state of life of each generation is so very different, with the differences becoming greater as technological advances accelerate. And for all the new perils that arise, there are also great advantages.

When I was growing up, the Apple IIe and Atari 5200 were the rage at a time when I was old enough to be able to play video games or use computers.

And back then, there were plenty of kids who played sports and avoided computers, and also plenty of kids who thrived on the arcades or on early versions of home video games.

But the majority fell somewhere in the middle- doing some of both.

I suspect there has always been a large segment of the population who are socially challenged, but in the internet age they are a lot more visible.

20 years ago- even 15 years ago- places like GreekChat did not exist. There was no completely democratic form of instant communication available to virtually everyone and visible by so many people.

And to make matters worse, a great many of the people who spend a LOT of time on the internet are those socially inept people. Those with full and rewarding lives are not going to spend hours a day on the internet.

There is the media to consider as well. Now that we have several 24 hour news stations making news into a profit business instead of a public service, we hear about all these really extreme stories.

In the wake of Columbine, there were several articles published showing that statistically speaking school shootings have been at a fairly constant level since the late 1800s.

But with all the media exposure now- Columbine became a story that was played up to create the illusion that school shootings were a new and dangerous phenomenon. Granted Columbine itself was an unusually grave situation, but that is not the same as using it to create the notion it was a sign of disaster in the newest generation of school children instead of just another isolated incident that is part of life.

My grandfather- a veteran of WWII and Korea- told me there were PLENTY of draft dodgers and drug addicts in those wars. But the media access to battlefields was different then and the wars were not as controversial as Vietnam- and so while there was certainly a more centralized effort to dodge the draft with Vietnam, the image of Vietnam compared to other wars regarding these issues is also more than a little skewed.

Long story short- I think technology just makes us more aware of the world at large, and a profit-driven media is going to bring us the most sensational and off the wall stories there are. And they are also going to invite political advocates and think-tank employees to talk about those incidents and portray them as signs of a negative trend in order to drum up support for political agendas.

This is why I pretty much only watch CNBC during market trading hours and sometimes Lou Dobbs after that. Even those broadcasts are tainted, but the rest are largely designed to inspire anger and emotion that is just not helpful or accurate.

I think that the authorities have a standard. But what would cause our children to make the conscious choice to pursue a violent act versus a collaborative supportive act of kindness? Because anger is an easier emotion to access and more viscerally empowering than to remain in solace and respond is transcendence and compassion...

It all comes down to the money or the value we place on those attachments that draw us an addiction to it... Some adults cannot triumph over their addictions, so how can we expect children to do so or to know the difference?

Thank you for the kind comment. I hope this civilized discussion can continue so that we can learn from each other rather than being "snarky"... ;)

I totally agree. I know when my cousins and I were little we spend hours just outside playing hide and seek, football, or any little game we found. My cousins had a Sega Genesis and I had the NES (and then later the Super NES) but we seriously played those for like 15 minutes---they bored us.

Now I see my younger cousins (who range in age from 6-13) and all they do is watch TV, stay on the computer, or play video games. Its ridiculous that they can't go outside and play, or ride their bikes for more than 3-5 minutes.

You know it's sad when some of us havent hit 45 and we are already referring it to 'the good old days'


before I pop off anbother long assed post...pop over to the Alicia Keys thread....part of what you said is echod in that.

If they are going to act like delinquents they should be treated like delinquents.

If you don't punish them you are sending the message that there are no consequences.

I know lots of people would disagree, but that's how i feel about it.