Woo woo woo...LOL

I feel you soror. And I agree...to a point...but also we as a sorority don't want to be that "option" just because they are trying to be in "25/52" (and I have to put that in quotes, because it's not as deep as some people make it to be). What I'm saying is that I certainly DO NOT want females to pursue Gamma Sigma Sigma, because either a) they are trying to be a part of that 25/52 circle or b) because they are being "made" to join GSS because the APO chapter is trying to become all-male. I'm just gonna put it out there. It has happened before with certain colonies/chapters. And trust me, those are the colonies that are doomed to fail from the start. Gamma Sig is for those who believe in our cause and are going to do some REAL WORK and REAL SERVICE, for US. It is not for those who don't aspire to do any less.

Of course I have my own personal opinion on the decision Alpha Phi Omega made at their last Convention, because I have had the opportunity to speak candidly with those members that I know. I personally don't find it to be fair, but out of respect that is all I think I can say.

OK, couple of points.

For the purposes of these comments, I'm going to split the country with a line running west from Richmond, VA to Denver, CO*. The number of all-male chapters at co-ed schools North of that line in each region are one or two (Maine-Orono & Maine-Machias in Region I, Drexel in Region II, Duquesne in Region V, and Minnesota-Duluth in Region IX), so the Regional Director is going to deal with them much more one on one.

South of that line, the Regional Directors are *much* more aware of the cultures. Region IV has Auburn, Clemson, Samford, FL A&M, Tuskegee, & Fort Valley. Region VII has Lamar, Texas Southern, and Grambling. These regions have also had a number of other all-male chapters that were recently active (or underground).

As for "Showing the Regional Director", I think that there are a couple of levels here.
1) Changing descriptions in places like school catalogs, school websites and chapter websites to show that the chapter is for both men and women. For example: (http://www.dusers.drexel.edu/~aphio/who%20are%20we.htm) should be changed to show the correct purpose (college students rather than college men and women)
2) Actions during rush. Is the chapter welcoming to those, both men and women, who stop by the rush table...
3) Being willing to accept those who are interested of both genders.

It does get fuzzy. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if at an HBCU like Fort Valley, the chapter didn't end up with a female brother for five years, even if they were doing everything reasonable to implement the change. (And no, standing in the female dorms begging chicks to join doesn't count as reasonable)

Charters can only be revoked for membership issues by the National Convention, so it won't be a one person decision on the part of the Regional Director. At a vote of the National Convention both the chapter and the RD would speak.

YiLFS
Randolph Finder

*Note, going beyond Denver doesn't matter, there hasn't been an all-male chapter west of Denver since the early 1980s.

I think it would be safe to say that we Gamma Sigs probably need to stay in our lane with this one. Let's focus on what we need to do as a sorority and let the fraternity handle it's own business. K? K.

;)

sorry, but i am not chaning my opinion on this...and i don't think expressing my opinion on what they are doing is me trying to medle in their affairs....end of the day i am not apo, so what i say amounts to a hill of beans...


but i am telling you....

it will be a cold day in hell before these hbcu chapters willingly allow a chic to come into their orgs....that's just being honest....they might even initiate her, but to actually include her in the "brother" aspect, like hangin out at the frat house and hopping at parties...you know, the social things that seperate a fraternity from circle k or your local food bank volunteers....i don't see it happening. and i say that for ALL chapters of co ed orgs at HBCU that are currently single gender but are indirectly being forced to be co-ed....i mean Tenn State is co-ed, but they also had to reactivate....same thing with apo here at howard....but FAMU??? TUSKEGEE??? man...i just don't see it...

i think it's great you want to support your national officers in their decision, but i think that in this world today, how man chics aren't in certain chapters should be the least of these white ladies issues...

we can agree to disagree...but i still think it's a retarded decision that whether we want to face it or not soror, WILL eventually affect us.

I'm asking you nicely as someone who has met you to please stay in your lane. I have supported Alpha Eta directly and indirectly over the years. Please do not continue to isolate the people who support you over this issue which has nothing to do with Gamma Sigma Sigma.

Whatever proclaimations that Alpha Phi Omega passes down to their chapters, has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Gamma Sigma Sigma. Period. The End. So I'm curious to know how it's DIRECTLY AFFECTING our sorority and how we operate. Maybe there is something that I don't know.

A few posts ago I said that I personally didn't think the decision is fair. I too have had conversations with APO members, both male AND female about it. However, GSS is always gonna come first to before something that another organization is doing. Soror, I really hope that you will come to Chicago this July and have the same fervor about what's going on with us, like you have with Alpha Phi Omega. Because you're right, we got our own issues to tackle.

It may sound harsh but I could care less about Alpha Phi Omega and their problems. I care about Gamma Sigma Sigma and OUR problems. Secondly, it's this thing called RESPECT that's seriously lacking in conversations like this one. Okay sure, we are "brothers and sisters" but this is THEIR business. I will say again what I have said before, if there's something going on in your org that you don't like, don't just sit there and b*tch. DO SOMETHING. You best believe those chapters that opposed it were there and voiced their opinion. And if they are really that adamant about it, they will have their behinds there at the NEXT one. If we truly respect our brothers, we trust them to take care of their own business and vice versa.

Soror I know you personally and I know you've got more to say--I have more to say. Hit me up on here if you want and we can talk more. Just know that nobody is saying that you can't have an opinion or express it. There's a time and place for everything.

um, what does this mean???

isolate? no brother, i stated my opinion on an issue posted in MY sorority's section of this site. you can ask me any day of the week and my mind will stay this way on this issue, regardless of which family (191946 or 2552) i am talking about.....


it's funny how you mention the support we've gtten from you, trust me we are thankful and grateful....but where was everyone when there were APO chicks threatening me and my LSs? when they came to our informational in letters to tell us we would fail? when they came to MY probate and disrepceted us? when they tell people not to rush GSS and slander us in thier recruitment tactics? no...your statement comes across as an indirect stfu kind of statement, and frankly, I don't appreciate it. you talk about alpha eta, then you have to also mention zeta phi....did you also support those members while they did those actions? i have heard similar stories from hbcu chapters of gss.....are we all rude for noticing that co-ed apo chapters in our world (that of hbcus) seem to especially like to diss us?


i never said that this directly affects us...what i did say was it eventually will affect us........i say this because i have DIRECTLY seen what female members of alpha phi omega do and say to gamma sig sisters. i also have seen directly thourgh my 191946 affiliation how many schools, weary of anything with greek letters, when given the option to charter or be home to two similar orgs, will usually choose the larger or more aggressive of the two.

i think we are either being too polite on this forum, or we as a whole are just simply in denial or are treating this issue like the elephant in the room.....no, i don't care how many women, men or shims are in alpha phi omega, but i DO think that MY sorority needs to take a look at how this could potentially affect us.

Where was I?

Where were you when Vikings disrespect women in APO?

Where were you when female brothers are told not to wear letters on Viking campuses?

Where were you when Attractive (APO GC member) was assaulted by a Vike?

Where were you when Vikes tried to undermine Zeta Phi before it even came back?

I cannot be in all places at once and nor can you. I cannot be held responsible for what girls in Zeta Phi may have done to you and your chapter. All I can suggest is that you complain to the appropriate people about it, as I would.

I can tell you with absolute conviction that I instructed all rechartering members of Zeta Phi to respect Gamma Sigma Sigma. If any of them chose a path other than respect and collaboration after that point, it is because I was not their advisor and no longer their sponsor. I don't believe in apologizing on behalf of others, but if it indeed happened, then it should have been addressed by the appropriate people.

But the REAL root of the issue is NOT women in APO -- and I find it really and truly sad that you don't see that. If you need me to spell it out, here it is:

The real problem is men of Alpha Phi Omega who do not treat women of Alpha Phi Omega with the same respect that they treat women of Gamma Sigma Sigma.

For as often as I have heard of disrespectful APO women, I have heard of the same of GSS. I wish both sides would see that they are being PLAYED by insecure men who don't respect the equality of Brotherhood or the distinct identity of a completely separate organization. It is those men who need the stern talking-to -- if they get it together, then GSS women would not feel the need to be defensive (yes, defensive) around women of APO, and women of APO would not feel the need to be on the attack (yes, attack).

I have seen it both. It sucks.

As I said, Alpha Phi Omega is handling things on our end. You know how to reach me if ever you find a need for a gap to be bridged at Howard University between our organizations.

Um, there is no "frat house" for any APO member to hang out at, that is prohibited by the National Bylaws. If they are hanging out at an APO Frat House, they've got a whole other set of issues to deal with.

Every chapter chartered before 1976 was chartered as an all-male chapter, and right now we have less than 20 holdouts. Lots of chapters have been reactivated at least once. Hell, we don't even have our Alpha chapter active, and it's been reactivated more than once. The fact that TN State is a re-charter doesn't mean anything.

I'm certain there was a time when people said APO wouldn't work at an HBCU because it was founded by whites and has Scouting at its core. Clearly, that isn't the case. Times are changing, and APO is choosing to lead the way rather than stick their heads in the sand. How many other GLO's have so many chapters on both HBCU campuses and non-HBCU campuses? I think that speaks volumes about our commitment to diversity and how it doesn't matter if you're black, white, yellow, red, purple, green, male, female or somewhere in between....you are all welcome to Be A Leader, Be A Friend and Be Of Service.

This was not a decision of the national officers, this was a decision upheld by the active (student) members of Alpha Phi Omega, as was the original decision to go co-ed in 1976. The national officers make recommendations, but it is ultimately up to the students.

I'm disgusted that you're playing the race card on this matter. Absolutely disgusted. Opinions along these lines only serve to further the racial divide and foster a "black people vs. everybody else" mentality. This has nothing to do with race, this is a matter of gender equity. (FWIW, I am a white male advisor to a predominately black female chapter on a co-ed public university campus, so I'm not exactly ignorant about these issues...) Do you think the predominately white all-male chapters are welcoming this with open arms and this is a plight to force co-ed APO at HBCU's? Our Delta chapter is all-male, and last time I checked my greek alphabet, Delta (Auburn) and Gamma Lambda (Clemson) are a hell of a lot older than Pi Zeta (Tuskegee) or Kappa Delta (FAMU) or Chi Nu (Grambling). APO chapters at HBCU's do not own the market on having to adapt following this re-affirmation of our membership policy.

So it's a retarded decision for us to actually enforce our policies and bylaws? Because that is what the decision was about. Don't make it more than it needs to be.

Yes, but they do hold a significant part of the market of having to be pushed. As far as I know, *one* chapter at an HBCU went co-ed without being forced to, Prairie View, and when they did so (Spring 2006) the writing was already on the wall. It may not be racial, but it *is* cultural. Whether or not there was more pressure from alumni and actives to stay all-male, there would be from the rest of the campus. At a campus like University of Maine-Orono, the only student group that is likely to *notice* Alpha Phi Omega going co-ed is Gamma Sigma Sigma. At an HBCU, the reaction is likely to be considerably wider. I would expect these same pressures to make the Gamma Sigma Sigma chapters at HBCUs less likely to have male sisters.

I'd be interested as to why you think that. I've looked back through the Torch and Trefoils from 1945 and 1946 and don't see any sign that they were treated any differently. When Johnson C. Smith University chartered it was sort of unique for the area, it was a relatively small school in the Altantic Southeast. The Southeast didn't have the Professional Scouters or APO staffers to spread the word that the Northeast (BSA HQ among others) or the Midwest (H. Roe Bartle (2nd APO president) did. The count of chapters of the States in the area: Maryland 1 (UMCP), Virginia 1 (UVA), North Carolina 1 (UNC), South Carolina 1 (Clemson), Georgia 4 (UGA, GaTech, Mercer & Emory), Tennessee None, Florida 2 (UFl, UMiami), Alabama 2 (Auburn, Howard C.).

I'm including the announcement of the chartering of JCSU.

http://drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu/~naraht/jcsu.gif

Yes, the word "Negro" is used. It was also written by a member of the JCSU chartering group *and* would have been the standard positive term at the time.

Also, in regards to the NPHC on campus, we did get there after the eight GLOS then in the NPHC did, but not by much. As best as I can tell the range of when they came on campus was 1923(AphiA)-1943(DST) and we came on in 1947.

Wow. I don't even know where to start.

Soror, I would like to know how this decision is going to affect us as a whole, I really do. Because I want to take a look at it, but give me something to look at. No disrespect or hostility soror, maybe I am missing something. I don't think I'm in denial about anything because quite frankly, there's nothing to be in denial about. I think the sorority is doing just fine, we are growing and doing what we need to do to succeed. Call it polite or what have you, I'm just callin it how it is. We should not let the actions of a few stop us from doing what we need to do. That is not only on the National level but on the local level as well.

I think Senusret NAILED IT with this:

What else is there to say? Better yet, why is it even that serious for my sorors and the female members of APO to even have a beef? If we are two separate organizations that clearly operate differently, why? Part of the reason is because people are gettin gassed up to dislike each other. What are we as women getting accomplished in our organizations when we're wasting time worrying about what the other is doing? Just last week I saw this group on Facebook titled "Yes, We Are Black Women in APO and No, We Are Not Gamma Sigs". I was looking at it like, "Is it really this serious?" Perhaps it is. From what I see, the female members of this frat are tired of being disrespected; they are tired of being told that they aren't truly members of their own fraternity; they're tired of being told they can't do this, they can't do that. Could you blame them? As a Gamma Sig I know I'm tired of seeing my organization be used as a "way out" of some of Alpha Phi Omega's policies...colonies are getting started so that chapter can be all male. As a Gamma Sig, I'm tired of meeting members of APO, fellow black women I might add, that almost immediately look at me with distrust or uncertainty about how I might treat them? So, could you blame me?

There's a lot of UNTRUTHS out there about both our organizations. I may not agree with some things about the fraternity--particularly the latest decision about "forcing" co-edness. My personal opinion? I think chapters should have the choice to let the chapter be whatever it's going to be, whether it's all-male, co-ed, or all-female even; but don't make a mandate out of it. However, that shouldn't dictate me in how I treat a female member of APO. What does my opinion have to do with me SPEAKING to someone, or how I treat them?

Luckily for me I grew up. And realized that in the big scheme of things, this is PETTY and TRIVIAL and as women in organizations of SERVICE and LEADERSHIP, we need to do better!!

Some additional numbers from National Board reports can be found at http://www.angelfire.com/mech/apo-truthnotfiction/

Thank you, I think that encapsulates a great deal of the feeling.

14 APO chapters counted as all-male now... If I'm counting correctly, 10 have Gamma Sig chapters (Clemson, Samford, Drexel, FAMU, MinnDuluth, Tuskegee, Duquesne, MaineOrono, TexasSouthern and Grambling). Lamar has a Gamma Sig Colony, Auburn as OPhiA, MaineMachias has Kappa Alpha Kappa (local) and Fort Valley, I can't tell. To reference back to Senusret's prior comment, the existance of Gamma Sigma Sigma has been used by the all-male APO chapters as a reason that they don't *need* to go co-ed. (prior to the Convention). (See web page referenced above.)



Agreed.


Amen.

Lamar no longer has a colony of GSS. They were disbanded in Fall 2006. Just wanted to correct that. Fort Valley doesn't have any service sororities. There were a few attempts to re-activate the Gamma Sig chapter there though.

If I was in your shoes, I think this is what would bother me the most. Something similar was touched on in the rush forum...there was a campus where there were local groups calling themselves "service sororities" when actually, they were operating more like NPC social groups - they just didn't want to have to follow some of Panhellenic's more restrictive policies. Using a group or a concept as a "way out" of anything is just so offensive and disrespectful.

a frat house is not just a house that official letters painted on the side...here at hu, a "frat" house is any location where everyone in that residence is a member of said org...they function as more unofficial frat houses, pardon me for not expounding on the technicalites of what is and is not a frat house

and sorry, but race is an issue....the culture of greek life at hbcu's is simply plainly different than at non-hbcu's. now the only difference i see between hbcu's and non hbcu's is the racial makeup of the majority of those students.......

i could respond to a number of these responses...but i won't. like i said, this was posted in my sorority's forum, so i'm gonna comment if i so choose....i also said that i am not in apo, so what i say amounts to a hill of beans.

i do have a question...how many all female chapters of apo are there? will they be forced to recruit male memebers and show that good faith effort?


my opinion isn't going to change, but all i can do is work that much harder to continue to spread MY service organization across the land as aggressively and stubbornly as i see alpha phi omegans spreading theirs


good day!