So you don't think the FDA gives into pressure from the major drug companies?

http://www.organicconsumers.org/poli...rrupt21705.cfm

If that is the case, why was it taken off the market? Would be interested in reading something that backs up your statement.

From what I've read-- there were problems even during clinical trials.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6627

Organicconsumers.org does not appear to be an unbiased source. And the FDA's procedures for food vs. drugs are different. Drugs will always have negative side effects. It's what they do. Food should not.

Basically every painkiller increases the chance of death in people with heart problems. High doses even more so. I don't have the newspaper article I was reading about how the official dosages did not have as significant side effects as the increased dosages doctors prescribed. They fell into the trap of thinking it was "safe" It's never safe. PR killed Vioxx more than anything else.

/Yeah I said "safe" earlier, but it's a relative scale thing.

If studies show no difference in cloned vs. non-cloned meat than the only thing different is your perception of it.

".org" generally = biased

Si.

Yes, the site is a biased site.. but the page sums up my feelings on the matter and does provide legitimate sources for its position. Further, Dr. David Graham, the associate Director for Science and Medicine in FDA's Office of Drug Safety has lambasted his own agency for the Vioxx mess and other drug-safety regulation failures. You might want to read this interiew in its entirety. Meantime.. here's one quote from that interview:

"On the safety side, I think that the American public can't be very confident. They can have some confidence because it turns out that most drugs are remarkably safe. But, when there are unsafe drugs, the FDA is very likely to err on the side of industry. Rarely will they keep a drug from being marketed or pull a drug off the market. A lot of this has to do with the standards that the FDA uses for safety. When they look at efficacy, they assume that the drug doesn't work and the company has to prove that the drug does work. When they look at safety it's entirely the opposite. The FDA assumes the drug is safe and now it's up to the company to prove that the drug isn't safe. Well, that's a no-brainer. What company on earth is going to try to prove that the drug isn't safe? There's no incentive for the companies to do things right. The clinical trials that are done are too small, and as a result it's very unusual to find a serious safety problem in these clinical trials. Safety flaws are discovered after the drug gets on the market."
http://www.newstarget.com/011401.html

I'm afraid you're mistaken regarding pain killers. Aspirin is a pain killer and actually is recommended for people as a PREVENTATIVE for heart problems.
http://www.americanheart.org/present...dentifier=4456

You also are mistaken regarding the safety of normal doses of Vioxx. In fact, it has been found to cause heart attacks even in low doses:

and.. during Senate Testimony-- Dr. Graham said this:

"In March of 2004, another epidemiologic study reported that both high-dose and low-dose Vioxx increased the risk of heart attacks compared to Vioxx's leading competitor, Celebrex. Our study, first reported in late August of this year found that Vioxx increased the risk of heart attack and sudden death by 3.7 fold for high-dose and 1.5 fold for low-dose, compared to Celebrex."

http://health.dailynewscentral.com/c...iew/000160/61/


PR didn't kill Vioxx... Vioxx killed people... and studies have now proved it.

So.. my question is.. how can we believe an agency which as made such egregious mistakes regarding our safety?

I agree! I dont get the wanting to sell cloned meat deal. I agree that it would seem more expensive to produce than breeding. I guess I just dont understand why they think it's necessary to do that.

As far as prescription drugs go that is so true! There are probably a few dangerous ones that have slipped through the cracks over the years but for the most part I believe they are safe (if used as directed) when they come out. There is no such thing as a completely safe drug, not even something as seemingly simple and common as Tylenol. It's the consumer/patient that neglects to follow dosing instructions and/or health care providers that neglect to look at the list of medications the patient is currently taking before putting them on the latest drug (which can cause adverse reactions such as Viagra and hypertension medications for example) AND neglecting to do a complete history and physical to rule out certain medical conditions that would make the medication contraindicated for that patient. But having said that a list of medications and medical history at least from the subjective information end are only as good as what the patient tells you.

As far as Vioxx being pulled.....most drugs tend to be pulled when law suits are filed against them regardless of why the law suits are filed.

Ibuprofen, naproxen, and other pain killers show similar issues. Aspirin is another matter, yes.

Yes and from a similar site, ibuprofen increased the risk by 1.x and 2.2 in the same situations. I'm not feeling like googling again though so we can drop the drug discussion. All drugs have side effects, take them or leave them.

This has nothing to do with cloned food

Found some of the "why"

WSJ article reprinted here:Cloned meat
Basically they're saying that they (the FDA) knows that currently it isn't cost effective but that's not their business. And that most likely cloned animals would be bred, not served, and we'd be eating the offspring. And in the end it's not much different than the artificial insemination that is already done.

Aspirin is a pain killer and yes it can help prevent damaging effects during a heart attack and prevent blood clots (in small amounts) but even aspirin is not for everyone. DId you bother to read the rest of that article after the first paragraph? Let me state it for you then.


"You should not start aspirin therapy without first consulting your physician. The risks and benefits of aspirin therapy vary for each person.........After you call 9-1-1, the 9-1-1 operator may recommend that you take an aspirin. He or she can make sure that you don't have an allergy to aspirin or a condition that makes using it too risky. If the 9-1-1 operator doesn't talk to you about taking an aspirin, the emergency medical technicians or the physician in the Emergency Department will give you an aspirin if it's right for you.......Taking aspirin isn't advised during a stroke, because not all strokes are caused by blood clots. Most strokes are caused by clots, but some are caused by ruptured blood vessels. Taking aspirin could potentially make these bleeding strokes more severe."

While aspirin does have good attributes as stated above it is not for everyone because it's not safe for everyone.

Aspirin isn't a pain killer, it's a blood thinner.

When I started reading this thread, I was thinking something similar. Does anyone even use aspirin as a pain killer anymore? Sure, people will say that they took an aspirin- but is it used like "kleenex" is- people just call it that? I don't think I know anyone who still takes it for headaches, etc. I know a lot of people who have heart related problems who take it, because, as you said, it's a blood thinner.

Sorry to further contribute to the hijack.

This is irrelevent to the conversation. I never stated that aspirin didn't have side effects... I know aspirin does. I was using aspirin as an example to Drole as to pain killers that don't damage the heart. She said all pain killers do. She was incorrect.

Egg-zackly. This is why I despise first aid courses and stupid Bayer commercials. Sometimes good intentions can make a situation a lot worse. For instance, I'm allergic to aspirin. One dose could annihilate me.
Who's using ASA as a painkiller these days anyway?
Also naproxen shouldn't be on the market period. That stuff will tear up anyone's stomach.

Blood thinner that relieves pain by reducing swelling (i think that's how it works) /= pain killer that causes the brain to numb pain

Regardless, if I say "the majority" of painkillers have heart damaging side effects (particularly in heart patients) instead of all, my point stands.