Sistermadly, I see where you're coming from.

I guess my issue is trying to figure out whether or not the finger is being pointed at more vocal conservatives, labeling them 'poster children' in the sake of just not being in agreeance with their ideas. Right or wrong (who decides?), a conservative is entitled to their fundamental beliefs of government setting of traditional social norms/small governments/self responsiblity/big business (no, these things aren't inherently Democratic OR Republican, but yes, they are the factors that most define the two sides of conservatism/liberalism;) which are most closely aligned with each respective party---it's just easier because most Americans 'consider' themselves polarized on two ends rather than three or four, maybe five) just as a liberal is entitled to their own. I know that's not what you are arguing, but it's been my observation that no one ever points the finger at knee-jerking liberals who rant about the government's responsiblity to the people, the right of every private citizen to his own privacy, etc. Why is that?

NB: When a Black conservative (in particular) voices his own take on how the country should be ran--however extreme that might be--he is then 'paid to say that', 'he is a ploy of the Republican party', etc, etc. In some cases he might be considered a 'sellout' and/or 'out of touch'. Why is this?

I don't believe that there will ever be a separation of church and state---this country, founded on Christian principles (whether or not the founders were actually Christian is up for grabs, but that's neither here nor there), has and will always use the Bible, THE BOOK for Christians, as a moral yardstick--the context of much of our legislation and legal precendency is based on the Bible and Christian teaching. But I digress--the question I should better ask is "Who is the problem? The extremists (Religious Right) or the GOP?" Is it the historical factors you have a problem (re: Southern Strategy) with or the party itself?

enigma_AKA

Re: Re: Re: Traditional, But not Republican
 

that is a very interesting comment. what are our interests? unlike decades ago, we have so much opportunity that to be 'for the people' doesnt seem to be as important. of course i could be wrong.

for me, i find that i have always been traditional (republican) on things like family and perhaps education. i am finding that i walk the line between conservatism and moderate thinking overall.

the fact that 'we' are not mostly of the same mindset anymore might work to our detriment. i cant help but feeling that too many of us are still waiting for the jacksons and the sharptons of the world to 'save' us, whereas those of us in the 'know' will be politicking for personal interests rather than for the people.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditional, But not Republican
 

I don't think anyone can say what 'our' interests are anymore, either. Many people, including/especially ourselves, think in monolithic terms: what is and what is not BLACK, who is and who is not BLACK and BLACK people do this, think this, act this way, like these things, dislike these things, etc. There is nothing wrong with the moving out of monolithic thinking, but the issue arises when you--maybe outside of the 'we' thinking-- seek to educate those inside of the 'we' thinking. We're afraid to do it, because it's difficult and for so long we've been wrapped up that we never sought to find the real reasons why we felt that way all along. Then comes those looking for a photo-op and great soundbites...who are you out to help? Me ('we') or you?

For historical, sociopolitical and economic reasons, we've been out of 'the know'. It was to their (federal adminstrative's) advantage for the people majorly affected by the decisions made on a federal level to be ignorant--then 'we' would never complain or seek to change. So, when the Jacksons' and the Sharptons' come along and say that they are for 'us', it's much easier for us to go along with it because there hadn't been anyone for us since the late 60's/70's.

And now Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson speak for 'us'. :rolleyes:
I'm not saying they are terrible people, but ummmm, Al Sharpton, please! Don't speak for me. Ever.

It is high time to figure out how to get people involved (I mean really involved--not that 'I'm a Democrat b/c I'm Black and Republicans hate us bulls###")without being disenfranchised by percieved issues with party lines. Be a Democrat because you understand their committment to increased government participation in public welfare and why that's important. Be a Republican because you understand that 'the least government is the best government' and why that's important. Whatever you decide, just know WHY you know it. Education, education, education!!

And yes, I am a FULL supporter of 'No Child Left Behind'!!!

enigma_AKA

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditional, But not Republican
 

Excellent point!

Hallelujah! Someone understands me! :D

When I use the term "poster children", I mean the person who can only tow the party line without conveying any understanding of political or personal nuances. I suppose I could also say that this applies to anyone who slavishly tows the party line -- any party line -- and who never diverts from the party's approved talking points.

People do - just listen to Ann Coulter, or heck, listen to mainstream talk radio. In the past, most black pundits and political figures were careful not to criticize the left because the left was responsible for many of the social/civil rights advances that occurred during the last 50 years or so. I also think that Blacks have been silent on this issue because it's only now that people are waking up to the fact that a lot of these well-intentioned liberal policies are actually responsible for the state many of our communities are in. We've had a couple of generations of hindsight now, and it's only now that Black critics are starting to point fingers and investigate alternatives.

For the same reason people say being educated is "being white". Fear of losing black credibility, fear of stepping outside of cultural/community expectations, fear of being a trailblazer who has to do all of the work to bring people over to that way of thinking. I don't think that Black conservatives are paid to say what they've said -- okay, Armstrong Williams maybe, but not anyone else. ;)

(I've got lots to say on the whole Christian country thing, but I don't want to hijack the thread.) ;)

Both. The historical factors inform the current party platform and policies.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditional, But not Republican
 

i hear ya!!!

Sistermadly,

I see, I see. Great Discussion!!

:D

enigma_AKA

And darling1 and HoneyKiss1974------> on the same page! ;) <-------

yup
 

i have realized that with having children, i have either strengthen my views or a few issues but i am still on the fence about so many others.

i do know this, sharpton and jackson never really spoke for me..lol

Well, almost on the same page, lol. I'm still pretty much overall conservative, though I don't have any children. Once, I tried to say I was a moderate, but for the most part, I'm about 90%/10% cons/lib.

My parents told me they become more conservative once they became, well, parents. Looking out for the best interest of your children and their futures is most important in deciding what's what in politics and policy. I've only become more conservative through political discourse (i.e. participating in urban politics courses (next semester I am taking Race and Public Housing, Black Civil Rights and Race and Politics :D), going abroad, interning with CDBG programs, working in grant writing)----I plan on entering into a career of urban empowerment/public adminstration.

This discussion is one I have alot because of my conservative values and plans to work primarily in the Black Community. My thoughts are: I know it's not our fault (totally, that is) that we don't'/didn't know, but in 2005, it's no longer okay. Things need to change; we need to stop whinin' and complainin' and MOVE. We know what we need to do; it's time to do it. NO MORE EXCUSES!

And to think I started off college (which 96% of its' campus identifies with liberalism/Democrat) as a liberal...that was then; this is now.

enigma_AKA

...
 

dont let my posts fool you..lol. i dont believe its okay to sit around and let our whining be all that we do. i wish i can travel abroad to get a better view. in time and with ava and baby x in tow. parenthood has definitely got me thinking more.

for a number of years i have felt that people, regardless of culture cant sit back and let those with money and power 'dictate' how we should think. the bush administration has given this country a hard lesson in what happens when you listen to lies spun to be the truth.

its not like there is a fight to hide information anymore. we have the internet, the library, national archives and we have ourselves. more people are becoming more aware of what is going on. no longer can conspiracy theorists be labeled 'crazy' or ignored..well, not all. even our media has gotten less covert in their politics.

although i am a believer in sharing my knowledge and helping my fellow man, i refuse to be an enabler. i think it is counterproductive and perhaps speaks more to what black conservatism is. no one wants to forget the struggles our ancestors endured, but times are different. there is more access and greater ability to succeed now than 30 years ago.

what i think our peers are slowly realizing is that now WE are it. we are the ones who are in the positions to set policy, to change it and to make others accountable. we have to decide like you said, what party affiliation to support with full knowledge of what that entails. gone should be the days that people are democrat because that is what my parents were. you set yourself up to not be part of the solution.

darling1,

Point taken and understood. ;)

Best of luck, new Mommy!!

enigma_AKA

Great Discussion
 

I just wanted to comment...

I feel for a lot of african americans they feel like it's all in presentation and when they see the democratic party they feel like they can relate to the party as a whole. Most of the faces of the Democratic Party (Bill Clinton, John Kerry, John Edwards) are people that in some way connect with the majority of african americans. But when you look at the Republican Party and their representation (George Bush, Condi Rice, Dick Cheney) they just don't come across to african americans as people who care about african americans. They are continuely saying and doing things that we don't agree with. I feel that most african americans understand that their needs to be a separation of church and state. That's one of the main things that frustrates me about the Republican Party or should I say Religious right that feel that everyone should be a christian. I am a christian and I understand they believe that the christian views are right (no pun intended) but I understand that there are other religions and who am I to say that my religion is superior to yours. I could go on and on about this subject. My friends and I always have these discussions about how we feel about the Democratic and Republican Party. One thing that we have all agreed on is that we don't really like to be identified as a Republican or Democratic cause we agree with each on some issues.


Maybe they should create new political parties. I don't know just my thoughts

So for the republican party, a small outspoken minority is the turn-off or is it their position on certain issues (ie abortion, the economy, educational rights, immigration policies, etc.) that do align with the ideas of those americans that are conservative? :confused:? I think its safe to say that each party has their vocal minority that we wish those on the outside wouldn't use as their rule of measurement (ie Cindy Sheehan and moveon.org come to mind for the more liberal/Dem parties) instead of really researching issues. Not saying that it applies to those that have posted here, but I have heard some of these same points posted before from other people. :)

But in all seriousness though, we've got to keep in mind that each of us (Af Am) has a varied priority list (if we can call it that) of things that are important to us personally, as well as what we believe to be the best solutions as to what ails most of our communities. That "list" will influence you. For some such as my self, its my faith - for others, it could be their wallet. It just variess, and that's ok. :)

We can talk about party steretypes and sock puppets until the cows come home and fry chicken. Ailments that disproportionately affect our communities such as broken families, sub-par public educational facilities, poverty, and just a general hopelessness - the thought that your current situation is as good as it will get - have got to be addressed in non-partisan ways.

Where is the love?
 

Great discussion !!!!

The thing that frustrates me about black conservatives is that there seems to be a lack of love for black people in there critique of the black condition. To hear people like Alan Keyes and that 'ignant' preacha' Rev. Peterson say things like "black people just are immoral" and " we will stop being profiled by police when we stop committing most of the crimes" to me just seems shrouded in self -hatred. Min. Farakhan was on C-Span this morning and he fielded calls about the march on Saturday. One of the things that I noticed was that he has the same beliefs that many conservatives want to call 'conservative' (i.e. strong family, faith, and personal responsibility). This is why I state emphatically that these values don't have to translate into conservative politics, and that you can hold these values as sacred and not have to fall into the self-hatred that I see in many black conservatives. Min. Farakhan will be quick to point out that there is a lack of discipline in our community that translates into a lot of bad choices that can in turn characterize our social, economic, and spiritual condition. But, his love of black people informs his perspective, and as a result, he asks the question of why so many of our people are finding themselves in these adverse social circumstances? The conservative just responds with the whole immoral schtick that really irks me, because to repond that way just insults all of the good black people who happen to be poor and disenfranchised in our society. Min. Farakhan's perspective turns to the posibilty of institutional racism that has more credance with me because there is sufficient evidence of this, and the logic is more responsible.

As far as whether black conservatives are sellouts, I think if they do what Rev. Peterson did on C-span yesterday, saying things like "cities were doing fine until black folks started running them" and "the people in the superdome after Katrina were dirty, immoral people" then that makes you a sellout. Those types of comments are what endear black conservatives to many white people, because it justifies the subhuman consideration of black people by the mainstream (white) national conscience. You can have "traditional" values without the rampant self-hatred I see in many black conservatives. Black conservatives get no respect in the black community not because black people don't like traditional family values, but because black people many times actually love being black and don't see "blackness" as a moral disadvantage that has to be unlearned or cleansed in order to be fully American. Our enemy is not our blackness, but the systemic racism that eats away at the very fabric of this nation.

Do we need our own political party? I think so, because neither Democrats nor Republicans speak to our unique position as people who do have traditional values yet see the need for radical change in the social order. This doesn't mean that we have to be a monolithic people, be we do need to value our own humanity. We should do what these political parties do, have a core platform of "essentials" (i.e. elimination of systemic evils, control of our own economic, cultural, and educational institutions, etc.) while being able to disagree on "non-essentials" (methods or priorities). This doesn't require a charasmatic leader, just organization.

Blackwatch!!!!!!

?
 

What, pray tell, would a Black political party base it's platform on?

~~~Black conservatives may be extremely critical of the Black situation, because, well, they are Black and they know from a first hand point of view, what society expects, what we expect of ourselves and how this whole thing actually plays out. I don't think it has anything to do with self hatred--dissapointment, yes, hatred, no. In one of my classes, taught by a White professor, he asked me why I felt so strongly about my conservative (politically speaking, not just socially speaking) values, especially in regards to the Black situation and I told him 'I expect better. I know we can do better. We haven't been handed the opportunities as other races (i.e. White people), but things have changed (resources available to us) and we need to get on the ball." To the other Blacks in the class who identified as liberals (again, politically speaking, not just socially speaking), I was 'insensitive' and yes, you guessed it, a 'sellout'--which I thought was funny---I was the only person who graduated from a historically Black Boarding school and whose parents stressed Black history/self identification since birth (we all were reading 'Miseducation of the Negro' and more in elementary school). I probably knew more about so-called 'being Black' than they did...but I digress...

So, not being with the majority of Blacks in my classes dealing with race and politics as far as political affiliation, I am, of course, more often than not beside the Whites in the class arguments/discussion. So, then, I guess, I'm trying to be 'like them' or I 'don't get it'.

~~~~The immorality schtick is important because its effects are ruining our people. Plain and simple. No, everyone didn't get the opportunity to know having many children with many men outside of wedlock is not normal or cohesive to the family structure or sometimes detrimental to the child's development is not good, but it doesn't make it okay. No, everyone didn't get the opportunity to learn that spending your money on childrens' educational vidoes versus those $200 gym shoes/insert brand name item here is not okay, but it doesn't make it okay. No, everyone didn't get the opportunity to learn that not only is going to school beneficial to your longterm success in life, it's beneficial to the community and your descendants, but that doesn't make it okay. I could go on and on, but my point is this: there needs to be less finger pointing, name calling and blame placing and more teaching. And that's beyond the classroom. It starts at home, with the village and people who will finally stop saying 'Well, such and such is doing/not doing this and look what happened' and start saying 'This is what we need to do to fix it. Let's get on a roll.'

Or at least, that's why I say. As a conservative Black, I feel obliged to educated my little cousins, my 'littles' (I'm a Big Sister), the foster children my parents raise and those who are a part of my brother's ministry (he has a ministry called 'Break the Cycle: I Dare You!'--go figure), that what they might be going through is not their fault, and that they can do more than what they ever thought they could acheive if they focus on the things that are important. They might go home to situations that might totally refute what I am showing them as an example and telling them in my interactions with them, but that's part of the learning process. And that doesn't even have anything to do with my being conservative.

What do we need to do?

Educate the parents. Educate the spirit. Educate a people. Stop making things okay when they aren't. Don't reward for things that are detrimental to your well being (i.e. giving welfare to 'repeat' offenders' or women, already on welfare with children, continue to have more children--they need to prove they will/already work and/or go to school before their aid is increased OR support videos/entire stations that hype up a lot of this nonsense/mentality). White people saying this same stuff doesn't make it wrong; a lot of times they are right, but we don't want to hear it. Call them racist. Say they don't understand. When Bill Cosby says it, he's 'getting old and out line' and is 'saying what White people have been telling him'. We can say it's not a bad thing and/or ignore it, but the numbers don't lie (number/percentage of single mothers vs. married couples in the Black community, those graduating from high school and those going to prison, etc.) and neither does the situation. So something has to give.

In the meanwhile, we don't have a party. And as most of you know, especially if you've ever taken a politics course, this country is based on a two party system. It's much easier to align yourself with either one than to try to rally up people, many of whom may not be neccessarily apathetic, but not interested in/not able to vote/participate in the political process, and create a party. With what's already here, we need to make a change.

enigma_AKA