Exactly. If religion is a belief system, you can't be converted to a different belief simply by being baptised beyond your control. You have to change your beliefs. If you still don't believe Mormonism makes sense, you're not a Mormon. Objecting to this practice only lends creedence to their bizarre beliefs -- you're putting stock in it.

While I think that what the LDS church is doing here is wrong, I don't think it's worth getting upset about. If you're Jewish, you're Jewish. A baptism by proxy isn't going to change that . . . unless the Mormons are right. ;)

Thanks for letting us decide what we can be upset about.

-Rudey

You can feel free to get upset over whatever you want. I just don't see the point.

Thank you for posting that you didn't see the point.

-Rudey
--I'm sure many Jews do care since they did protest it however.

According to this website:

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/lhm1097a.htm

Prior to 1978, Mormon Church leaders taught that blacks were cursed by God and inferior to whites. Because of this they could not hold the priesthood, participate in the sacred temple ceremonies, or be married for eternity in a Mormon Temple. Since a temple marriage is required for anyone to live in God's presence, it was very difficult for LDS blacks to understand why they would be banned from the temple.

I think the point is that they are being crass and ignorant, while being arrogantly disrespectful of another faith - they are purposely ignoring the a previous agreement that they made to not perform these "baptisims"; and more importantly they are disrespecting another religion...

I don't blame Rudey or any other Jew for being upset at these jackasses - just as I would be if they were going around poshumously 'converting' Catholics...

I believe they are -- it's my understanding that they posthumously "convert" everyone.

Clearly, coming from a non-religious perspective, I don't put a lot of stock in religious rituals -- so to me, this is the equivalent of, say, GeekyPenguin telling me I'm Catholic. I'm not Catholic, her telling me I'm Catholic can't make me Catholic, and she's not forcing me to act like I am Catholic, so why should I care? It's not in good taste on her part, but it doesn't affect me in the slightest unless I actually believe she's right.

I don't mean to upset anyone here who might be LDS, but the Mormon church is screwed up in so many ways that it's really impossible for me to take them seriously, and I don't see how anybody else can.

As someone who is engaged to marry a Mormon this December, let me add that I have already let it be known to his family as well as mine that should I die, there is no way I would wish to be re-baptized into any church. I was baptized Catholic & have no plans to stray. I am also making it a point to put this in writing with my living will as well as my will if and when I go. That way, my children and their children will know that I absolutely do NOT want to be re-baptized.

my leg fell asleep reading this...are they going to baptize my leg?

Have you ever had that sensation that you really should just shake your head, and ignore a thread, but you just have to respond?

Ladies and Gentlemen of GreekChat, the members of the LDS church (Mormons) baptize EVERYONE whose records they find! Not just those who are Jewish, or Muslim, or Black, or Hispanic - ALL of them. To them, they are simply fulfilling the requirements of their faith - and this has been going on for over a hundred years.

Look at it this way: I'm doing some genealogical research, and find your ancestor, and I decide that, instead of being from America, I go through some ceremony and "recreate" your ancestor as a Tibetan. Does that make your ancestor a Tibetan? No. Does it affect your ancestor at all? No. Assuming that you are secure in your own faith, does it really, truly mean diddly-squat? No.

Yes, it's somewhat irritating - but so are half the posts on GreekChat!

While you see it from a non-religious perspective there are those of us that cannot divorce our faith from our religious convictions.

Many people here on GC find the concept of being told what and how to think or believe repelent - and rightly so. These pathetic tools are challenging/robbing/ignoring/disrespectring Jews (and others) of both their historical and religious beliefs... all in the name of a arrogant disregard for others and their beliefs - it passes beyond "good taste" and becomes insulting to a faith belief system...

It saddens me that these "people" have taken it upon themselves to assume that they are the final arbitor of what is the correct faith - and then force that belief upon others, in life and in death... this even surpases the decidely criminal actions of my own Church (Catholic) during the Crusades - at least the Catholic Church allowed the dead to remain true to their faith. These assholes haven't even afforded the dead that....

Now to put this in context - if they are determined to "baptize" Jews who have died... does that mean that they are "baptizing" Jews that died during the Holocaust? I'd hope that no one thinks that that is even remotelt acceptable - even a proxy baptisim insults the faith of those that died for their faith and those that died as firm believers.

Personally I'm looking into this here in Canada - if the Mormons are participating in this reprehensible act I will be more than happy to lend my voice to those advocating that the 'church' be charge for violating the tenents, if not the legality, of the freedom and respect of religious freedom here.

The timing on this is really strange, for me. My (Mormon) boyfriend and I were talking this weekend, and he told me that he participated in a proxy baptism, and I just didn't understand it at the time. Being Jewish and reading this now really bothers me. Like I said, strange timing.

I guess to me (and this is strictly my feelings) it's like they are trying to push their faith on these people. And no matter what religion I don't agree with that. To me it shouldn't be a requirement of one faith to push (baptize w/out consent) their faith on another (dead) person and quite possibly their family.

Again this is just my opinion and people are more than welcome to disagree with me.

Thanks ASUADPi. I'm horrible at explaining things, but what you said is exactly how I feel about it.

Yes. It was the Jewish community learning that proxy baptisms were being performed "for" victims of the Holocaust that lead to this dispute to begin with and to the agreement that apparently is now not being honored.

I'm sure you'll find that they do it in Canada, too. It's a religious obligation for observant Mormons. Which means that by seeking to have them "charged" for violating religious freedoms, one would have to violate their religious freedoms.

And while I'll agree that, particularly as regards some groups, such as the Jews, this particular practice is beyond insensitive, I simply don't see a basis for charges that the practice violates any non-Mormon's religious freedom. As has been said before, unless you believe that what they are doing has some effect -- which I think only an observant Mormon would believe -- it's a meaningless act.

Proxy baptism doesn't "force" anything, even if the Mormon understanding of it is accepted. Again, the Mormon belief is that the dead person must both accept the Gospel (as understood by the LDS) and be baptised in order to enter to "higher" levels of paradise. Proxy baptism satisfies the second requirement but not the first. So if Observant Mormon undergoes a proxy baptism for John Doe, who has been dead for 20 years, but John Doe, "on the other side," still does not "accept the Gospel," the proxy baptism alone has not done anything. Even under Mormon theology, the choice is still up to John Doe -- it's just that the fact that he was not baptised (according to Mormon rites) while on Earth is not an impediment should John Doe, after death, choose to "accept the Gospel." On the other hand, should John Doe "accept the Gospel" after death, that alone will not do him any good until a proxy baptism is performed for him.