I knew that would come off as meaner than I meant it to be, and I apologize. My chapter has always been coed (chartered in 1976) and we never had a problem with saying "brothers." It just seems to me that someone who does have that big of an issue with it is the one who is in APO for the wrong reason.

Changing the toast song or adding verses is not something approved by nationals. Period. (Unofficial songs are a different matter - every sorority and fraternity has them) Honestly, why don't you just get rid of the use of "brothers" period and change it to "members?" :rolleyes: That's the slippery slope we will slide down if things like this start getting changed.

My only issue with the Toast Song is, as Randy (Naraht) indicated, we legally cannot claim it as our own, as the tune was created and copyrighted by a non-brother, we just "borrowed" the tune and put our own lyrics in it. So in a sense, we are plagurising the "Toast Song" tune.

Rather that scrapping the Toast Song entirely, I would recommend someone come up with a tune original to Alpha Phi Omega with lyrics suitable for all brothers, and make that the official fraternity song, and make the Toast Song the unofficial song. That way, the Toast Song can be sung any way the chapter involved so desires, and the Fraternity song can be truly claimed as our own, and most likely no objections should arise.

I have heard this online debate on the Toast Song for 10 years, and I am surprised that no one thought to add a 2nd song.

new song
 

For those of you not at NatCon, and those of you there might have missed this - nearing the conclusion of the final legislative session, a resolution was put forth by the (now former) Region II Director, Craig Muckle, to look at writing a new song, since this Toast Song as it's currently sung (both officially and non-officially) has become more divisive than unifying.

The resolution did not pass.

In fact, there was a motion to table this resolution indefinitely. That motion passed.

So, even tho the idea of a new song was proposed, it went down in flames and was in fact tabled indefinitely. Will this come up again in Louisville? Of course it will....

Not Even!!!!!!!!
 

I do not agree with changing the Toast song, hell we've already changed the ORIGINAL purpose of the fraternity. I feel as though the lyrics that were used are sacred and are used for a particular reason, which may be unknown to us at this present time. NO disrespect, but I felt sick :mad: :mad: :mad: when I traveled to another section and heard them sing, "Friends of Alpha Phi Omega... :eek: :eek: :eek: " I kindly stepped back and asked what new fraternity did I enter, but I forgot some things are done quite DIFFERENTLY :rolleyes: in other places.

2004 Convention Choir
 

To hear the Toast Song, as sung by the 2004 Convention Choir:

http://www.apor3.org/images/2004Conv...OToastSong.mp3

Re: Not Even!!!!!!!!
 

You would prefer that Alpha Phi Omega have remained with its original purpose?

As of the 1926 Yearbook at Lafayette College

The purpose of the fraternity shall be to assemble those who have had experience and training under the Scout Oath and Laws, to revive the spirit of that Oath and Law, to develop friendship, to encourage encourage service, and to enable its members to become leaders of America's youth, through character-building, citizenship, college spirit and manly strength.

See
http://ww2.lafayette.edu/~library/sp.../APOPhoto.html

Randy

i mean people it didnt change and most of the frat does not want it to change lets move to the next subject. I do personally think those who want the toast song change are not really knowledgable of the fraternity at all. We were an all male frat. we were an all male frat longer than we have been co-ed. yes the frat is co-ed but that is not the "offical" name of APO/ There is not co-ed service fraternity added on to our title. We have never had a female president ( not saying we never will) i feel if you want to be a sister then do a sorority. If you want to be a "friend" then do a club. If we want to be a "member" then do an honor society. We are a fraternity that allows female membership. I think we are going to come to a point where were going to have to decide whether or not to be a society. We have so many peolpe in our great org that take this as a social group. How many brother know read the history pass 76? How many brother really know history and how the sheild was made and important people to the frat. There isnt a year that goes by that i dont meet people who are in APO and dont know when the org was started. ive heard things like 76, 80, i have evern heard someone state that we were a new org. lol I really personally think we are losing the seriousness of the fraternity to this new ideal of change. Yes change is good and is needed in any org to survive and grow but to lose history or to totally forget our proud history is bad which has happened to APO in the last 30 years. People tend to focus on service but forget our founder wanted us to be brothers who did service not do service only. I love apo but i really feel we need to take our org more seriously and figth to keep our rich triditions alive and not to change something. we need to add on like we added on females in the org, we added a second verse to the toast song ( yes there was only 1 verse for many yes until they added another one) So lets not lose our focus of service and also lets not lose our focus of brotherhood.

Re: Re: Not Even!!!!!!!!
 

Dear Brother Randy,

I was just trying to show a major change unfortunately, it is not about me, but if it was it would not affect me. I went through the ranks from Tiger all the way to Eagle Scout. Now again--- this was just to show a major change!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad:

Now I will digress.............

Your Brother in the Bond,
T. A. Henderson

I would imagine it would affect you as well, not personally, but how many of Zeta Phi chapter would still be there under the pre 1967 requirements (which by stating both experience under the Scout Oath and Manly strength, the 1926 purpose seems to require)...


Consider this. in the year 2004, the activities and actions of the most conservative chapter of Alpha Phi Omega has more in common with the most liberal than it does with any chapter of the fraternity during the time that Frank Reed Horton was Supreme Grand Master.

Randy

I would have to agree with lurker...by the way, welcome to the frat!!! To tell someone that they should resign because they do things differently at their chapter is OUT OF POCKET and WRONG!!! I am not saying that I agree with their chapter, but I have to respect their chapter, just like I would want mine's respected. People do need to realize that diversity is accepting the fact that people are different and that is an important part of Alpha Phi Omega!!!

Now as far as the issue about the toast song goes, I do not think that it should be changed because 1. I like the toast song as is and 2. I have accepted the fact that I am a brother in a fraternity, although I am a female, and a sexy one at that!:p But for me, the issue of the toast song is really a manifestation of a larger issue going on in Alpha Phi Omega that bothers me, and that is SWEEPING EVERY DAMN THING UNDER THE RUG AND BEING AMBIGIOUS for IMPORTANT ISSUES! Year in and out, the toast song, along with other things are brought up whether it is on GC, listserves, casual conversation, etc... Discussions are had only to have it postponed or swept under the rug! Everything is Laissez-Faire! Let the people do as they will! When are we going to confront the issues head on! Yes it is cool for some chapters to have there own traditions and mores and I can even deal with the cow print 'naila, but somethings should be unified throughout the frat and the Toast song is one of these things!!! That is ridiculous that you can travel to three different schools and hear three different versions!!! Everyone needs to sing the same version of it because it is something that we all should have in common and regardless whether I visit Alpha chapter or Mu Psi Mu chapter, I could feel comfortable in the brotherhood circle. The delegates at NATCON basically stated that the toast song should remain as is...SO Dead the issue, why allow people to bring it up every convention to only have it shot down!!!That needs to stop!!!

What is surprising to me is that most women in the frat like the song the way it is. You do have a couple of women/ultrafeminists who are trying to genderize everything but for the most part, the ladies accept things the way they are so I really don't want it to seem all of the women feel this way!!! For them, if it is really unbearable to say MEN or Brother, maybe they can join, OPA or GSS (NOT AN INSULT) I mean they do great service too or create their own org and they wouldn't have worry about this!!!

NEWS!!!
BRUH FO' LIFE

P.S. I wonder if this is an issue for GSS male sorors?!?!
P.P.S. Who keeps bringing this up every NATCON
P.P.P.S. Tomas, Yours in the Bond (for real?!?!
:eek: ) hmm... j/k you know I lub you:D :p but I see you!!!(sniggling at Tomas)

Actually, this as last time if I remember correctly, the National Board proposed local option, but I could be wrong.

The problem with moratoriums on things is that a large majority of voting delegates, this is their first convention and for a significant number of brothers, they only have one convention in their time as an active brother. If our conventions were semi-annual so that most people were at 3 or 4 or 5 then moratoriums might be appropriate.

We can ask over on the GSS board, but it is my understanding that less than 25% of GSS chapters are co-ed and even those chapters are still majority women. I think APO had percentage-wise more chapters co-ed by the end of the 1977-1978 school year than GSS has now. And as far as I know GSS doesn't have any male officers above the chapter level. (They have only one level of geographical organization, not two)

Randy

No you don't have to ask over on GSS Ave. I can answer it here as a GSS Staffer :D

Out of the 60+ chapters/colonies we have, I can count on one hand how many have men in it. And even then, it's only 1 or 2 guys in that chapter. Maybe one chapter I can think of has more than 2 guys in it.

GSS doesn't have any Male NBD Members and I don't see that changing anytime soon. So yeah, I think we're on a completely different level than APO, no disrespect.

Curiousity, which GSS chapter has more than two? (Wondering if APO is on that campus)

Agreed on a different level.

Randy

Toast song proposal
 

The only proposal this time was written by the Board of Directors - and that proposal was to change "men of" to "true to." I must note, however, that this was not a unanimous decision. I was one of the dissenting votes, but was in the minority. No student nor any chapter proposed changing the song. No alumni nor any alumni association proposed changing the song. The ONLY proposal this Convention was put forth by the BOD.

More or less support for changing?
 

Does anyone whose been to the last few (since 1990, I guess) conventions have a feeling for whether the number of voting delegates voting for something to change the toast song has gone up or down? I realize that comparing votes for a "local" option to a complete change to "True to" to addition of a third verse is tough to compare...

Randy