Here's what I wonder, though -- and I've never done any kind of delinquency/juvenile law -- my understanding is that juveniles can be detained until they're 18. So they may be in custody for less or more time than someone convicted as an adult (that sounds like something John Madden would say) -- it's not necessarily true that they'd be locked up for less time.

However, I don't know that length of custody is the most important factor here. I wonder if being, say, 16 years old and in prison with adult offenders for a few years would actually do more harm than letting the kid out of a juvenile facility when he's 18. There must be studies on this somewhere, but I've never seen any.

Then why can't a minor have sex? We have a screwed up society that views sex as worse than horrific violence.

Look at MPAA ratings for movies, you can have extreme violence and get a PG rating but nudity gets a R-rating.

PhiPsiRuss and Valkyrie--

A situation and question for you all:

From my perspective, these kids were jacked the minute they were born. For whatever reason, most kids do not have severe emotional disturbances with a psychotic behavior without have major birth defects and developmental problems from jump.

Basically, the crack babies are teens now...

Brain cell connections are made from day one after embryonic development. They are completed around the time the kid is 9-12 for some brain parts... Others brain connections may never get completed. This is basic neurobiology--it is called "long terminal potentiation" or LTP. It has been suggested that some mental disorders are caused by inappropriate LTPs--or incorrect brain connections to other parts of the body. Meaning if these kids were jacked from their mother's being substance abusers, then the kiddie's brain connections have yet to form, much less properly or appropriately... I think this is relevant for schizophrenia...

Then you've got the severe emotionally disturbed kids that were physically or sexually abused and they may or may not be crack babies also...

So I see this "Clockwork Orange 'ultraviolence'" occurences that could be medically treatable with cognitive therapeutics. Much like mentally retarded children get help throughout their lives...

Maybe when these kids were on a bad track in life, they could have gone through some program?

I dunno.

But the main problem is that most of the violent offender teens "look normal"--no physcial defects, they "test normally"--no low IQ because they can even begin to comprehend basic set--they have low IQ because they cannot sit still long enough to learn the material, and they can tell the difference between "right" and "wrong" for other situations, but not theirs--a misjudgement problem.

So how does the "state" address these issues is my main question?

I am not sure the "state" is capable or competent to address these kinds of problems. Certainly even child services is not known for its incredible ability to change lives. At best they might make sure a child gets subsistence support.

What you are talking about is what lies below the tip of the ice burgh. The under currents that lurk in the murky depths that results in the visible behaviors we have to punish.

As you say, children with pathways and connections that aren't physically working well combined with growing up in environments that reinforce stress, anxiety, impulsiveness and maladaptive behaviors and coping mechanisms.

You would have to identify "at risk" kids as early as possible and remove them from their normal environment and put them into a new environment where as many variables are controlled for as possible. That would include both diet, life style as well as role models that can shape behavior. Training if you will. Medication if necessary.

There has been some promising research that combinations of certain essential fatty acids as well as some phospholipids can work wonders on restoring proper brain function.

However, that approach is way beyond the familiarity of society so is unlikely to meet with any real approval .. plus you would have to have people that could implement that kind of program . . another big if.

If you look at this thread:

http://greekchat.com/gcforums/showth...threadid=60527

It appears that many parents don't even see the importance of having a working model of how to prevent chronic stress and anxiety from having a dehabilitating effect on children. Let alone hvaing already incorporated it systematically into their child's daily pattern.

And thats where it would have to start.

We are all doomed as a society :)

You make the most sense about the whole problem, IMHO. This is why I think that we need a third tier of the penal system. These offenders shouldn't be lumped in with delinquent children, nor with career criminals.

Then we have the 8-year-old killers. What happens to them? Are we really so optimistic about reform that we think that, once they've killed, they won't kill again? Do we dare take the chance?

I worked in adolescent psych for many many years and I saw a lot, especially since part of that time was working in the inner city of Detroit. I worked with a 13 year old girl who was brought in after being stopped by the police because she had a gun... she was heading to a guy's house to avenge her brother's gang related death. She grew up in that environment and truly believed that was the correct response. She was in our hospital for 6 months and made a huge turn around in her attitude and her stage of moral reasoning increased by two levels. I've also worked with kids who were sociopaths and nothing was going to change that. I worked with one young man (the scariest ever) who was clearly on a path toward severe rape/torture of women (he started with cutting up Play Boys, then started torturing his sister's Barbie dolls and then started stealing undergarments of mom and sister and cutting those up, so he was progressing). Logically, this kid should have been locked up for a long long time with very intensive rehab, but the services weren't available and you can't lock someone up for a crime they haven't committed yet. He even admitted that he had fantasies of being the lead singer in a band and that he would slit women's throats as they tried to come up on stage during live concerts. He was one sick kid.

All of that said, we do have rules and limitations on what children can do in this society because of their inability to make good decisions (voting, driving, alcohol use, having sex, etc). Kids ARE kids and should not be treated exactly like adults. I agree with honeychile that there needs to be a third tier. Tried as juveniles, in special jails/prisons for extremely violent juveniles, with highly intense psychological rehab, following with evaluations at 18 to determine whether they should remain incarcerated (moving to adult prison then) or in treatment or whether they have been rehabilitated.

Nobody will pay for it though.

Dee

Dee--

The sad part is for the folks who do not work in this "environment" is that do we really need to build another penal institution for these types of offenders?

Another sad part is, nothing scares these children anymore. When I was a kid, I was afraid of jails and "throwing away the key". Kids these days, think, "three hots and a cot" all paid for by the "state" (the US taxpayer). And to me, what is most shocking, that kids have no concept of why it is wrong--not just the difference between right and wrong, but why it was wrong to kill or rape so and so...

But that's my opinion...

You're right, Dee. Unfortunately, few people see this as a very real problem until it's on their doorstep.

My mother's church had an Angel Tree for the first time this year. For those not familiar with the term, the Angel Tree contains the names, ages & desires of children whose parents are incarcerated. The number of people who simply couldn't believe that there THAT many children on a random tree whose parents are in jail was unbelievable! But these are people who don't know of anyone who has been to jail, so while it's somewhat excusable, it's a valuable lesson. I was happy that my mother took the names of two angels (but was almost in tears when I saw that the one wanted pj's "in girly colors").

What's scary is how many of these "Angels" will turn around and end up in jail themselves - because they weren't afforded opportunities otherwise.

In the Atlanta area, a 16-year-old girl kills three pedestrians while driving recklessly.

She is charged as a juvenile, makes an anti-bad driving video, does a little public service, and is already back driving and moving along with her life.

I think anyone who commits a crime with a vehicle should be charged as an adult, and efforts are underway to get the state law changed. Currently the county prosecutor decides.