This is a great standard to look to... anything that puts someone in danger - wrong; anything that is designed to humilitae - wrong...

That to me is the basic difference between hazing and indoctrination. Which is the great essential difference between the crap that some chapters pull, and what happens (for the most part) during basic training in the military.

Yes, Scavenger hunts are something I have always been upset about not being able to do!! I wish I would have been able to put together a (nice) scavenger hunt all around campus for the NMs. I remember whenever I would visit my Aunt Anna when I was little, she would put together these "treasure hunts" for me and my sister all around her house and backyard and they were soo much fun...my aunt wasnt hazing us!! haha. I think it would have been SUCH a fun time to be able to do this with my pledge sisters and a great way to learn history and bond.

Of course, I know some chapters ruined it for the rest of us which sucks. I guess this just goes back to my earlier statement of "i wish things were different for Greeks in general!"

I think you hit the naill on the head.:confused:

The few who did and got carried away made it that much harder on everybody, therefore, Risk Management Insurance and the idea of being squeeky clean for that reason.

All of us as National and Locals should be aware of this.

The problem is, what We Sowed, is what We are Reaping Now!:(

Grey area?
 

I think it is totally laughible to compare military training to keg stands.

I have been through Army Infantry training. Yes, I volunteered for it, but once you get there, there is no where else to go. The government makes you sign a contract, and you take an oath of office containing the phrase "I swear to support and defend the constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foriegn and domestic, and to obey the orders of those appointed over me". Once you sign the contract, you are considered government property. You can be brought up on charges of 'Damaging government property' if you break your leg.

Most importantly, the military is training you to KILL and to SURVIVE in times of war!


My fraternity has a strict no hazing policy and my chapter strictly adheres to it. We don't haze at all and lets see, has it hurt my chapter? Has it caused my brothers not to bond?

Regional Outstanding Chapter 2004 - Sig Tau
4 Consecutive Greek Sing wins - YSU
Undefeated Intramurals - YSU - 3 years running
Cum GPA of 3.24 (out of 36 brothers)
- Best on campus (6 fraternities / 4 sororities), Best in nation for Sig Tau
Numerous philanthropy, scholorship, and recruitment awards

Oh yeah, and we were re-chartered in 2001. These awards are since the re-chartering.

If you feel that humiliating another human being brings you closer to them, then go for it.

We like to think that winning everything builds bonds too. You can only win when everyone is doing their part to reach the goal.

There are some idocies with hazing as well. A scavenger hunt considered hazing? Come on.

I am angry that my nationals now considers it hazing for us to require new members to learn our creed. The foundation for everything we do, and Nationals says that we can only encourage them to learn it!

Basically, my opinion on the whole thing is that an activity becomes hazing when the person in question wouldn't normally do it, or have it done to them. Laws are interpreted based on the state of mind of the victim during the event.

Be careful out there.

Well, I can say that I personally witnessed a Drill Sgt standing on the chest of another recruit, yelling at him. BUT, the kid was about to make a mistake on a live-fire range and was putting the whole platoon in danger.

I was thrown up a flight of stairs by a DS, but I was being a douchebag.

The worst that I saw while I was there happened to another platoon. One of them was caught wearing his sweats under his uniform. It was around 10 degrees out with wind chill, but he broke a regulation. The DS's put guards at the door of their platoon bay and they were smoked till all of them fell out. They had to put on all their clothes (including a charcoal-lined chem suit) and were PT'd (Physically Trained) for about 2 hours. We could look through the windows from our bay into theirs. They were crawling through piles of vomit, and that's all I saw because the windows got covered with condensation. One kid lost 12 pounds in those 2 hours. None of them broke regs again though.

Military training isnt the touchy-feely crap you see on Dateline NBC. Those visits are scheduled weeks in advance, and all the dicipline is kept away from the cameras.

But we kept telling ourselves "I'm getting $1,187/month for this".

Well, that, and "I am kicking my recruiter's A$# when I get back!"

"I have been through Army Infantry training."

A lot of us have. The vast majority lived through it.

But, what if that boot had died while the DI was standing on his chest?

Or, if someone in that other platoon had died of heat stroke?

Whle being the first to admit that there's a major difference between the military and a fraternity, here's also a difference between "training" and brutality.

To a lesser extent than the military, the failure to understand that difference, and the death or physical injuries to pledges during previous years is what brought on all of these strict rules on hazing.

It isn't PC. It's stupidity on our part -- and then fostering the reputation by bragging about what we went through, what we did to the next classes and fables of what great drinkers and partyers we are/were which grow by the year. Who built and protected that reputation?

The days of drill sergeants/drill instructors/military training instructors (Army/Navy/Marines/Air Force, respectively) physically touching recruits in training are officially long gone. It might happen once in a blue moon, but for most DIs, they value their Smokey Bear hat/bush hat and the extra pay to not piss it away doing something stupid if they get caught.

Sure, we had it tougher last year (WHITLY!). It's been over 20 years since I endured Pinnacle Week, but I wouldn't wish it upon anyone else today the lack of sleep, the bullshit rules, among other things that I endured to become an Alpha Sig.

And it's been nearly 20 years since I endured basic training at Lackland AFB. I never was touched by any of the TIs, but they sure can put the fear of God into a young recruit. Hell, I didn't relax until the flight out of San Antonio International took off.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AlphaSigOU
[B]The days of drill sergeants/drill instructors/military training instructors (Army/Navy/Marines/Air Force, respectively) physically touching recruits in training are officially long gone. [QUOTE]


Um, I graduated basic in Feb 2000. That's not so long-gone, but there is a difference between the infantry and the rest of the Army.

To clairfy, I think its important to consider a chapter's, a Panhel's/IFC's, and a headquarters gray areas. For a time, it was very very very clear that there was no gray area in my chapter because we had messed up so severely that our headquarters said no to every event that could be a gray area. My chapter had messed up our HQ's trust that these benign gatherings wouldn't wind up clearly being hazing.

And then its very hard to trust and respect your immediate older sisters and alumni.

But then I've sat in Panhel meetings where your Greek advisor mentions a hazing incident and you realize that you know it was the business fraternity on your campus. And there's not much you can do about that.

I've always felt that hazing can be a good thing and should be treated as a productive tool and not shunned automatically because a bunch of assholes decide to combine alcohol and bungee cords to its meaning...

Hazing is Good Thread

However, all states have anti-hazing statutes and will continue to ignore the problem and only punish when it occurs. Never quite understood how a scavenger hunt could be so mentally dangerous to a pledge, but whatever...


RUgreek

Scavenger Hunt trends:
Items to find/things to do became more and more "outrageous" or sexually explicit or dangerous or illegal

Punishments for not completing the hunt became more and more dangerous/extreme (drinking a shot for each item not found, having to do something humiliating if you didn't finish, being screamed at for being useless dirtbags if you didn't finish, etc.)

Scavenger hunts are not just a hazing issue, they are a risk managment issue. If you are racing around town trying to win a hunt, you are at high risk for injury (ex. running in front of a car because you're trying to dash to get back to the house first, driving dangerously because you're in a hurry, etc). For this reason, even alumnae chapters/clubs are forbidden from doing things like Road Rallies, which can be really fun, but carry a high risk of liability problems.

Dee

I feel like a broken record on here sometimes

I think what the real issue here is that society is so PC now, it's not even funny.

"OOh, we might hurt this guy's feelings if we do this"

I completely understand the philosophy behind hazing. It happens wherever you go. The new guy at work, the new roommate, new kid in your circle of friends. We all have either hazed someone or have been hazed at some point. The reason why the Greek Community gets so much of the attention is that, reaching it's height during the Vietnam War, it was seen as part of the establishment. Fraternities were widely viewed as recruiting for the business community and the government that was fighting an unjust war.

Who's running things now? The 'hippie protestors' of that period.

Hazing is a fact of life. Each one of us does it every day. We decide if someone is 'good enough' do deserve our company. Hell, I bet you could scream hazing because people around you were talking about something you knew nothing about.

"They were trying to change my views"

Basically, I believe in hazing with due regard for safety. However, given the current political climate, I don't conciously engage in hazing.

My advice: "Stop whining and grow a set. The world is not nice and sweet. Not everyone deserves a trophy, not everyone deserves praise. Get over it, because I already have."

So, let's see if I've got this right.

George Bush was a hippie. Bob Taft (your governor) was a hippie. The president of Ohio State was a hippie.

Hey, I was a director level manager with TCI, and I wasn't a hippie.

The hippie thing is way overbuilt in a lot of people's minds. Don't misunderstand, the "opposition" folks of the sixties did a lot of important things -- and some of them did become leaders -- but the fact is that they were a very small part of even the college society back then.

On the hippie thing, remember that a lot of people get much more conservative/mainstream once they begin to have families and larger responsibilities. I've seen, ok so this is my generation, a lot of hippies go very conservative as soon as they leave college. It is just an angry right position to say hippies control this country. If they did, we'd have a constitutional amendment that granted women equal rights, pot would be legalized, women's choice would not be threatend, we would not be in Iraq, religious groups would not be recieving federal money and Georgie would certainly not be our President...for the second term. This country is MUCH more conservative than most of the right will admit. You can see it in our federal spending, our foreign policy and in our domestic politics. I'm not whinning, just pointing it out.

George Bush isn't running a college, dude. :) Neither is Bob Taft. I have no idea what the prez of Ohio State did in his youth. We're not talking about who runs the country, we're talking about who runs colleges and universities which is not the same thing.

As far as Dee's comments about the scavenger hunts, they're not dangerous if they're done correctly. People are just too lazy to make rules that say scavenger hunts/interviews/whatever if conducted will be done in such and such a manner - it's easier to just ban everything. Of course, that fosters the "in for a buck, in for a quarter" mentality - if we're going to get busted for hazing for a scavenger hunt, we might as well go overboard with it.

It's like allowing 18 year olds to drink 3.2 beer - I'm sure there would be those who would still break the law and drink liquor but I think the majority would appreciate being given that leeway and not abuse it.