Relax...
 

Sorry friend, but this isnt the kind of thing I've done with my chapter, this is something I've seen at a bachelor party. Yeah, and what does rape have to do with this situation at all???
Sorry to inform most of you, but when strippers are told to give a certain group of guys a good show or a special treatment, this is what they do. I dont really see the big issue with this, I mean getting smacked around by some strippers sounds kinda fun to me....

Re: Relax...
 

Didn't say it was.

However, the university in this case has decided to make it a big deal. Lots of others would, too. You can't just do what these guys did, get caught, and expect nobody to be taken to task for it.

How you consider it doesn't count -- it's how those in charge feel.

Re: Re: Relax...
 

I'm pretty aware of that. I just think its bullshit to be taken to this high of a degree.

Re: Re: Re: Relax...
 

I think that when you've been an advisor and a division or national officer, you'll be even more aware.

Seems like you're the one thats not too aware of what goes on in the real world...

I think that one of the reasons that chapters are so much at ther mercy of the "opinions" of university officials is that they don't retain lawyers.

Generally college administrators are rather heavy handed and cavalier because colleges are pretty much closed systems

They generally make procedural and ethical mistakes.

However, you need an attourney to catch them at it.

Agreed. Every chapter should keep at least one alum-attorney around and if possible keep one active on their advisory board.

You're probably right.

It's guys like me who get to go investigate incidents like this one, and make the really tough decisions about whether a chapter lives or dies. Or gets to try to defend the same chapter if we disagree with the university.

Or (although I've never had to do this, friends and brothers have) deal with parents, media, etc. when a member is seriously hurt or killed.

After you've had that responsibility, we'll talk more.

See i think the problem with what went on was that the incident when on at the fraternity house or as part of a post initiation "reward"/local tradition. This stuff happens all the time and yes it happens in the real world but the issue is that what went on probably happened at the fraternity house to just that recently initiated brothers as a reward.

A house at my school used to do this until such incidents were seen as a possible risk management issue. if they did this at a strip club away from campus the issue might be different.

Shoot when my pledge class went on an out of state pledge retreat we went to a strip club and we bought a pldge brother a lap dance on the stage and they whipped him and all. But if thats hazing and i am sure somehow it could be seen as it i am sorry and will advise against doing that in the future but we did go there as friends not as a fraternity event.

This probably was a fraternity event and probably a post initiation "reward".

thermobryan your point is valid as long as it isn't at the fraternity house or a manditory event.

DeltALum is right in saying that they should have not done this and atleast not have pictures taken.

I hope i got to all the issues.

I live next to Pike at ASU. This was for big bro lil bro revealing. Its been blow out of proportion. There is much worse hazing going on at ASU than having strippers.

A lot of issues which are alleged to be hazing are blown out of proportion (my opinion only), but that's the climate we live in. Laws are vague and open to wide interpretation.

Whether the actions are dangerous (or even hazing) or not, the charges are enough to cast a long shadow on a chapter, and sometimes the entire Greek System at a college.

Then, they are added to the "statistics" overall and insurance premiums go up, etc. Remember that no matter what letters you wear, you are painted with the same brush as far as the public and the insurance industry are concerned.

If you could put yourselves in the place of your National Office (or officers), you might have a different view of the problem here. Even a pro-fraternity university administration would be forced to take action when presented with pictures of an event like this one. If they didn't, and the word got out (which it would since someone obviously is passing the pics around), the public outcry would be very damaging to the institution.

Look at some of the lawsuits from hazing. Who gets sued? The chapter officers, the chapter advisors, the national office, the university, sometimes the chapter officers parents, and anyone else the lawyer can think of.

That's why this stuff is called Risk Management.

You can believe you aren't doing anything wrong. You can pontificate that the whole world is against you. You can cry it isn't fair. Whatever.

If you get caught, though, (and these guys did) you're screwed. And everything above ain't gonna help.

The rules are the rules. The law is the law.

Whether this incident is hazing or not isn't going to matter in the end. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck -- a lot of people are going to think it's a duck. Whether it is or not.

Discuss this all as we may and seemingly call each other out, the main point is,

"They are Gone".

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out, OOPS, we have a problem

I think Delta Alum has stated very well from His experiences what can happen and will.

I have a friend who was a Regional Rep. for KS and got so fed up with the crap, "telling some Chapters to straighten up or I will recommend you be suspended.

Suddenly, He became the bad Brother. Not the Brothers who were screwing up.:o

Well, he is still an Alum with KS and proud of the fact but will have nothing to do with any locals including his own.

Get with the program, You Pay Your Money to go to school to get an education, not act like asses and be ignorant.

Schools love your money, not stupidity and will rid themselves like a cur dog that cannot be controlled!

Let's ban 'em
 

Just as health clubs are banning picture-taking cellphones, maybe chapters should ban cameras.

Let's ban 'em
 

Just as health clubs are banning picture-taking cellphones, maybe chapters should ban cameras.

Re: Let's ban 'em
 

Exactly...And if you choose to do something that is questionable, cause we all know what would piss off our nationals, then why would you take pictures of it?? I do have to say they're morons for that, but I think strippers isnt hazing...It might be hazing if you're gay, but I dont think they were....Maybe the one that turned them in was.....I mean what guy in your chapter would turn you in for strippers whipping brothers???