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Quote:

Originally posted by Love_Spell_6
...(An aside I actually think its insane to talk about the 9/11 victims as if they all think the same....but that seems to be the way the convo is going.) THe 9/11 victims do not own this tragedy...

I definitly agree with you here. This was a nation's tragedy.

The way I see it is, if someone a or a group of people feel another preson or group is profiting is of a tragedy, what they need to do is quit their bitching and hit them where it hurts the most...their pocket books or in this case the polls.
If there are that many people out there that have issues with this ad campaign then there need to let it be known at the polls.

Quote:

Originally posted by Rudey
All broadcasters should be fined by the FCC for this and we need to have this banned in several cities.

OK, but it hasn't been broadcast yet. Only Cablecast. There's a difference.

That's what you call splitting hairs.

Quote:

Originally posted by DeltAlum
OK, but it hasn't been broadcast yet. Only Cablecast. There's a difference.

That's what you call splitting hairs.

You drive me insane with those posts because you obviously know I won't know bizarre details like that lol.

-Rudey
--Stop bragging about how smart you are.

Quote:

Originally posted by DeltAlum
OK, but it hasn't been broadcast yet. Only Cablecast. There's a difference.

That's what you call splitting hairs.

Actually I saw it on channel 4 I believe... NBC. I'm pretty sure.

I saw the commercial. I could give a shit or two about politics. But it made me cringe. I agree with whoever said that if it had shown Bush giving speeches and helping out and stuff. Showing what HE did, not what others did.

Yes this was a national tragedy, not just the victim's. But I doubt if it had been your mother/father/child that had died, you would like that commercial.

Actually, I would like to see how a republican who is family of a victim feels about the commercial, or a republican survivor. Then I guess that would prove whether these feelings or disrespect are just a political issue.

Quote:

Originally posted by mu_agd
i find it quite disrespectful and (fortunately) i didn't lose anyone in the attacks. my feeling is there is a time and a place for everything, and this is not the time and place for it. to me, it seems like Bush is using these national tragedies to make sure he stays employed, in a way.

Is that any different than Democrats using the same tragedy to make sure they stay employed?

The writer forgot to mention the fact that the one group that is complaining about the ad is run by Teresa Heinz aka Teresa Heinz Kerry.

Quote:

Originally posted by James
Just mudslinging.

Exactly. This is your perfect example of "Damned if you do, and Damned if you don't".

The same people calling foul now would express outrage that 9/11 wasn't mentioned at all.

And the first people screaming would be funded by non-American born Teresa "I'm not using any of the Heinz fortune to benefit my husband" Heinz Kerry.

Quote:

Originally posted by PM_Mama00

Yes this was a national tragedy, not just the victim's. But I doubt if it had been your mother/father/child that had died, you would like that commercial.

Actually, I heard on CNN Politics Sunday this morning that there have been a great deal of 9/11 affected families (ie, people directly involved with losing loved ones -- not saying that this was not a nation's tragedy) and fire and police personnel are signing petitions that agree with Bush's use of the commercials.

I am NOT commenting one way or another on this (for right now) - I am simply letting you guys know what was on CNN this morning :)

Oh - I also saw the Campaign Managers from both Kerry & Bush's camps -- wow -- talk about tension :D

Guess the jig is up... from an e-mail a Masonic lodge brother sent me:

Quote:

September 11 families say Bush campaign treading on the dead...

so reads the headline. It makes one think that Bush has enraged every member of every family who lost someone on September 11. It gives the idea that Bush has crossed the line and disrespected the victims of our nation's tragedy....

....then you read "the rest of the story".

The article has quotes from some women like Rita Lasar, who lost her brother. Rita says, "Ground Zero is a sacred site ... find some other way to run a campaign without stepping on the bodies of our dead." In passing it mentions that Rita is a steering committee member of the group, September 11 Families for Peaceful Tomorrows.

Then another article quotes Colleen Kelly as saying, "It's absolutely inappropriate ... There are certain memories and certain images that I consider sacred." Colleen Kelly leads the group, September 11 Families for Peaceful Tomorrows.

Now just reading these articles leaves the average person with the feeling that these women would have no political agenda, they're simply mourning victims of a national tragedy who are voicing their heartfelt, personal feelings in reaction to a few ads supporting President Bush in the Presidential campaign. But let's take a closer look....

Peaceful Tomorrows

Organized primarily by families of victims, Peaceful Tomorrows seeks to open up a public dialogue about appropriate alternative responses to the September 11 tragedies. Efforts will be made to raise awareness of the complex issues involved in responding to terrorism and influence the US policy towards more effective, democratically-based responses to terrorism in both domestic and foreign policy. source

That is the description of the group as presented on a list of projects sponsored by the Tides Center of Pennsylvannia.

"But who is the Tides Center? Known as the Tides Center for Pennsylvania, formerly the Tides Center for Western Pennsylvania, it is none other than a creation of the Tides Foundation and Center, headquartered in San Francisco, and two Pennsylvania-based foundations -- the Vira Heinz Endowment and the Howard Heinz Endowment-- chaired by Teresa Heinz Kerry, heir to the Heinz food company fortune and wife of Democrat presidential contender Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts." (source: http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/trib.../s_169770.html)

That's right.... these poor outraged victims are simply pawns in the political workings of the Democrat Party.

"Tides works like this: When a high-profile donor wants to give money to a group with an extreme agenda but doesn't want its fingerprints on the donation, it simply gives the money to The Tides Foundation in the form of a "donor- advised donation." Tides then passes that money on to the desired recipient, masking the real source of the cash. As anti-war activist Drummond Pike (who set up the Tides Foundation in 1976 for the express purpose of keeping donors' identities unknown) told the Chronicle of Philanthropy, a publication for the nonprofit world, "Anonymity is very important to most of the people we work with."

The Tides Center also manages the Youth Gender Project whose goal is to "empower and support transgender, gender-variant, intersexed and gender-questioning youth and young adults."

Grant recipients also include the Iraq Peace Fund that has so far granted $489,000 to 27 groups to promote anti-war marches and their coverage by the news media, as well as the mission of one of those groups, MoveOn.org, whose purpose is to defeat George W. Bush.

So, in the end, we don't really have heartfelt outrage by a few victims' family members, we have a concerted, coordinated political campaign, cloaked in a shroud of mourning, waging war against George W. Bush in his bid for reelection. I think we all should be completely outraged as the Democrat's use of this tactic as one of the lowest, most vile examples of disgraceful political gamesmanship in modern history.

Now all the pieces are coming together. You see, as these "outraged" family members were touring the airwaves, there was a peculiar familiary to their comments. Despite being on numerous different media outlets in different cities at different time, most of them repeated the same four or fives lines - VERBATIM. The Democrat talking points certainly found their way to the fax machines last night, didn't they?

Additionally, in Bal Harbour, Fla., the International Association of Fire Fighters Union, which endorsed Kerry early in the presidential race, approved a resolution asking the Bush campaign to pull the ads and urging him to apologize to the families. Many rank and file firefighters, when asked, said they did not share their union leader's sentiments. It's a shame Katie Couric failed to ask for their opinions on national television.

Isn't it telling the tactics the Democrats have to use to challenge Bush? Doesn't it say much about their message, their party and their candidate? They can't deliver an honest statement or valid solution to the American public. They are wrapped in their little world millions of miles out of touch with the average, mainstream American that they must stoop to illegal, unethical and immoral actions to get a point across.

Source: http://texasrainmaker.blogspot.com/

Those who like sausage and politics should never, ever watch either one of 'em being made.

In a way, I feel guilty for saying this but since my opinion doesn't really amount to a hill of beans anyway I may as well just go ahead.

Yikes, here goes...

Don't flame me please...

Ok...

I find that, as a group, the families of the 9/11 victims are whiney and annoying. (ducks to avoid flame) That sounds awful, doesn't it. And, like I said, I feel kind of guilty for thinking this. But, it's just that they aren't the only people who lost loved ones in this country due to terrorism. I could be wrong, but I haven't heard that the government has compensated families of the victims of the Oklahoma City bombing or the families of the victims from the first time the WTC was bombed. As far as the WTC being a sacred site, there's just something about that that doesn't sit well with me. Sure, build a memorial there. That's totally appropriate. But...sacred??? It doesn't seem right to me.

I am not trying to play down what these poor people have suffered; it is easily one of the most horrendous events that has ever taken place in our country. And I realize that no amount of compensation could ever take the place of a lost loved one. However, as a group, they seem to have a voracious appetite for money and attention even they're not the only people who have ever lost loved ones to a hideous act of violence.

Sorry, I just had to get that out. And, like I said, I feel sort of guilty for thinking this way and if anyone feels differently I would love to hear what you think (since I would love an excuse to change my mind)

BTW, as far as the original intent of the thread, I think President Bush is justified in using the footage. I believe it belongs to *all* of us since the attacks were aimed at us as a country. And, as someone mentioned, Mr. Bush's response to those attacks was a defining moment in his first term. I think the gist of the commercial is if you think he did a good job in the aftermath, then vote for him and if you don't, vote for John Kerry.

Quote:

Originally posted by KillarneyRose
I find that, as a group, the families of the 9/11 victims are whiney and annoying. (ducks to avoid flame)

*puts on her sunglasses*

I understand what youre saying, and heres a similar view:

Its not whininess or anything like that, its just that so many news outlets have made it a New York-exclusive tragedy that the people have been conditioned to feel as if its theirs and no one elses. As someone who actually did lose a family friend in the Oklahoma City bombing, I can relate the awful sense of helplessness and loss, but there were also no ads proclaiming 'we are all Oklahomans' immediately following. I can only guess the 'we are all New Yorkers' campaign was designed to make those who felt it was a far away event feel like it hit closer to home, and it backfired somewhat, making many New Yorkers feel less like Americans, and sectionalizing the tragedy.

Quote:

Originally posted by KillarneyRose
BTW, as far as the original intent of the thread, I think President Bush is justified in using the footage. I believe it belongs to *all* of us since the attacks were aimed at us as a country. And, as someone mentioned, Mr. Bush's response to those attacks was a defining moment in his first term. I think the gist of the commercial is if you think he did a good job in the aftermath, then vote for him and if you don't, vote for John Kerry.

Ok I get what you're saying, but I don't agree with this. Him using random footage of 9-11 now is kinda like making it look like he "owns" it, if we're all (generalized) gona talk about who owns it blah blah blah. I might've said this in my other post, but I think if it woulda shown what he did, like visiting the site, and stuff like that, it would be different.

Quote:

from mrblonde... making many New Yorkers feel less like Americans, and sectionalizing the tragedy.

Sooo kinda like how Texans feel?

Quote:

Originally posted by PM_Mama00

Sooo kinda like how Texans feel?

Your immense penis envy for things Southern and especially Texas has nothign to do with this.

This is about politically motivated people using an emotional ploy to further their intentions. THAT dihonors the dead from 9-11 more than anything Bush could ever do. Yes, Bush is running them in political ads, but he was President then, and it's something he faced. By purporting yourself to be upset because of your loss of family, but the REAL reason you're doing it is to keep Bush from being re-elected is dishonest and shameful.

9-11 belongs to all of us. The same way that OKC belongs to all of us. Like Pearl Harbor belongs to all of us. The way Gettysburg belongs to all of us.

Bush has every right to show whatever images he wants from those days seeing as how when the towers fell, the majority of us were worried about our saftey, but he had the added burden of concern for safety of the rest of the nation.

My personal opinion of the man has changed since he was elected, i will admit that, but i find nothing wrong with him using those images.

Kitso
KS 361

Quote:

Originally posted by PM_Mama00

Sooo kinda like how Texans feel?

Alright, so this was uncalled for.

KR - I agree with a lot of what you are saying, too. So many beautiful re-construction designs were rejected by 9/11 families, and we often hear "we can't do that b/c the 9/11 families don't like it" etc etc. My boyfriend's mother was killed by a car while she stood on a corner waiting for the light in the Bronx. While it was not a terrorist, it was no less sudden or unexpected. Nor are his feelings of loss any less. And as he says all the time "My mother died on that corner and I don't go petitioning that a garbage can or a mail box shouldn't be put there because it's sacred ground". Anyone who has suffered the loss of a loved one has every right to feel hurt and upset, but they don't have every right to dictate everything that happens as a result of that death.

On to the thread topic at hand - as I've said before, if Bush wanted to show himself at Ground Zero, or even shots of the wreckage with American flags - more power to him! But the shot of the firefighters bringing the dead body out - that;s just too much. And you can claim my opinion is "partisan politics" all you want - but you're wrong (in the case of MY personal opinion).