http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Can you please clarify what you mean by "oppressive actions?" Was that phrase used for a lack of a better term? I'm wondering because I don't feel that we as Blacks (or African-Americans) are in a position to "oppress" anyone. We don't have to power to oppress any group of people. Verbal abuse, I don't think, is hardly the same as oppression. I'm not trying to justify homophobic or racist slurs, I'm just saying, it can't even compare to oppression, in my opinion.

I think that hatred in any form is wrong. I don't, however, think that people's feelings are wrong. I, personally, don't agree with being "politically correct." I think that people can be "real" and tactful at the same time. Being PC, to me, is just a way to BS how you "really" feel. Otherwise the term wouldn't exist. If you are afraid of homosexuals and their lifestyle, that's ok, because that's how you feel, and no one is in a position to tell someone else how they "should" FEEL. To HATE someone based on how you FEEL, that in my opinion is wrong, based on MY belief system. I can't begin to speak to people on how they should feel or whatever, because their belief system may be different from my own. However, it's not the HATRED that oppresses people, it's the ACTIONS that stem from hatred.

I think that when we begin to condemn other people for how they think and feel, we foster silence. Who wants to speak out about how they feel if they think that they are gonna get condemned for it? Silence fosters fear, and fear fosters hate. You're right, it is a cycle.

I don't know? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif I do wish he had left it though. I lightweight agreed with him!!

Doggystyle, bring your post back!!! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

[quote]Originally posted by Discogoddess:
*WARNING*
A BIT LONG

I also disagree with the comment about effeminate gay men, made by another poster. I CANNOT STAND the ghettoness of MANY, MANY of my family, neighbors and others,
[QUOTE]


I am not sure if you are referring to my post or not, but since I mentioned that point, I'll respond:

I am glad you compared effeminate behavior to extreme "ghettoness" because, I feel the way about both. I would not presume to tell either how to live their life, but I certainly don't think its wrong for me to disagree with their behavior.

Do I think ghetto behavior is a problem and a possible liability to our people? YES

Do I think effeminate behavior is a problem in our community and a possible liability to our people? YES

I don't think that people are neccesarily trying to dictate how people express themselves, but even in our "touchy feely politically correct" society, I think that I still have the right to be irritated and say so. I think that peoples inability to really discuss issues that affect us without being fearful about stepping on toes, creates a certain type of resentment.

A person may not necessarily be anti-gay,but when society tells us that we should give the same value to all customs and mores in society, and if we don't, we're bigots, I think that where a lot of the frustration comes from.

If all these different social customs, cultures, and other "preferences" are supposed to be acceptable and accepted by everyone, why doesnt one superculture exist where we all partcipate in a little of all customs and mores.

I think that the two types of behavior are more similar than one might think. I dont think effeminate behavior has a whole lot to do with, nor is it a pre-requisite to being a homosexual man.




[This message has been edited by HopefulJD (edited April 10, 2001).]

HopefulJD and others:

I hear where you're going with the "anti-PC" stuff, but just don't get your feathers ruffled when a "disgruntled white man" says the same things about racial issues as you're saying about sexuality issues. Are the two the same? No, but in our culture, we all want to be able to comment and criticize other groups, but have a hissy fit when others do it to us. Black people are NOTORIOUS for this. We feel ANY commentary about us by non-blacks is inherently racist, and will demonstrate, burn newspapers and call Al Sharpton n'em for any least little viewpoint offensive to our sensibilities. But let someone else get offended with our rhetoric (in this case, lastpoet was reacting, I presume, to the thinly veiled biases many have shown against gay/lesbian people on GC), then we want to holler about everyone being free to express an opinion. On GC, we get especially huffy with those not towing the line, then pretend we're all open-minded.

Having said all that, I'm surprised that DoggyStyle82 decided to delete his post. I do not agree with some of his views, but I respect his right to his own opinions. I'm surprised someone so passionate about them would choose to back out of the fray once the topic "got hot," so to speak.

much respect...

i am also wondering what happened to doggystyle82's response. both the one that i replied to earlier and the one that he subsequently replied to as well. doggystyle82 if you would like to continue our discussion via email i am more than open to that...my email address is: sdchrismon@hotmail.com. i think that you have some interesting thoughts and i am always open to hearing other viewpoints. please feel free to email me. i am very welcome to all opinions those i agree with and those i don't. i only ask that we be respectful of one another as we engage in intellectual conversation.

what i mean when i say how does one group justify their oppressive actions against another group? i am basically stating...how do we as black people justify our anger with racists...when we also use racial epithets, derogatory speech, and occasionally resort to violence against other groups who are also oppressed in our country.

to oppress another group does not necessarily mean that we physically, monitarily, or socially hold them down. but it is clear that excessive exposures of oppressive speech can affect an individual. take for example internalized racism. i am sure many of you understand this concept but i will give you my understanding of it.

internalized racism occurs when one is consistently exposed to racist expression and then begins to believe that these things are true. in turn not only do they believe these things but express them to others. we often point out those who have extreme cases of internalized racism when we discuss people like Ward Connerly. i know people at my university who suffer from internalized racism. one gentleman in particular often says that, "its okay if white people calls us niggers because thats what we are...and its their world anyway." he also says things such as, "black women are stupid." and "black men need white men to help them better themselves" clearly this is a case of internalized racism to an extreme. but it is an example.

my main point and maybe this will be a better restating...is hate and the act of hating the same when it is a person of color doing it to other oppressed groups as it is when a white person does it to oppressed group? do we find ourselves more "tolerant" of certain kinds of hate speech because we find the group either "morally" irresposible or have been affected by their actions against us?
and if this is the case...how can we say to white supremacists who clearly from their dogma finds us, as black people, "morally" irresponsible and due to their beliefs that such things as civil rights and affirmative action have subsequently "affected" them in attaining "their jobs" (clearly i am spouting their rhetoric)...that they are wrong for their hate?

this thread was not just about homosexuality. which of course is the hot button issue and has been wildly run with. but what about the hate that we spit out against women and against other races? can we justify our intolerance for hate when it is white on black...but we are tolerant when it is black on others.

that is my thought process.

i would like to reiterate again that i am in no way trying to as our elequent brother doggystyle82 stated trying to initialize the "thought police". never that. i too have read 1984 and other books like it. i am a strong believer in free speech. as a political science major and a registered member of the ACLU i am extremely pro-free speech.

i may not agree with what folx say. but i do support them in their right to say it. i just prefer to have open respectful communication between two differing groups. i believe that once we have that all things can be talked out.

in any case...this is a post for the moderators. i do not suspect to know your minds nor how you may run the thread. but if you deem it necessary to lock the thread then i understand. my hope is that we can continue to have some intellectual discussion and keep trying to understand one another one word at a time. thanks.

peace and thank you,
lastpoet

As I stated before, you cannot be an advocate of certain types of hate and not expect to be recipricated. What goes around comes around, but if we stopped sending it (hate) around, there would be nothing to come back to bite us in our own butts.

I completely agree with you on that point, Discogodess, I know that the price of my being able to be free to feel the way I do means that millions of white people, and men, and homosexuals, and anybody else who doesn't agree with my way of life have to be free to feel the way they want to about me or those similarly situated. Do I like it? Sometimes, no. But what is the alternative?

To a certain degree, I agree, but one has to consider the historic and long standing social implications of race in America. Also, we have to consider the power structure in America, the fact that I deem effeminate behavior to be inappropriate has not, will not, and I doubt will ever deprive any individual of their freedom, a job, an education, or even the minimal quality of life that all of us are entitled to.

I do feel that being an African American has made me, and probably most of us, sensitive to the plight of other people, but to say that we must be tolerant of all lifestyles and people simply because we are Black, I think, is a joke and speaks volumes about our place in the societal hierarchy.

Well, you and I will have to agree to disagree, because IMO someone's innate sexuality is NOT a lifestyle choice. The choices all of us make about our sexuality make up our lifestyles, perhaps, but our sexuality itself is not. I'm not saying you as an individual or we as a people have to accept everything and everybody. I'm just saying don't start crying and whining when others aren't accepting of our "lifestyle."

I think the point is to be tolerant because Blacks and Homosexuals share a common bond of being OPPRESSED. We know how it feels to be looked down upon, to be denied certain rights, not respected, etc. so therefore we have no right to do it to someone else, just because we think that we are "better than they are".

I find it funny how some people are so quick to seek the bible for answers on how they should treat or view blacks/homosexuals/ women, etc.. and use certain passages to justify their beliefs. I think the real answer to how should we treat others is best summed up in the quote, "Do unto others as I have done unto you". And the last time I checked, the Lord has done nothing but love each and everyone of us no matter how much we "sin".

This topic is quite interesting, and I have been reading it for several days.

It's very interesting what people have to say on the topic of not just homosexuality, but oppressed groups in general. After spending some time in Catholic School (intense Bible study), I have realized that the Bible is one of the most conflicting books of all time. People tend to support/utilize Bible scriptures when they have personal gain (i.e. to prove a point). It seems odd that the very same people will forget the scriptures when they want to have premarital sex, have children out of wedlock, cheat, steal, lie, abuse, forget to thank God for his blessings, and just plain forget that God creates EVERYONE and claims to love EVERYONE!

The Bible has never been and never will be a shield for personal use. It's obvious when a person is hiding behind the Word...to both GOD and the people he created. I don't recall God telling me it was okay to adhere to some things he said and tiptoe around others. I always felt that it’s all or nothing with Religion. There might be some parts you wonder about but if you have faith you have FULL FAITH, not just faith in the things you want to believe in and blind sight the things you don’t.

As far as the oppression issue: I find that there is always some group that is being picked on. Shoot, look at American history! Native Americans, Chinese people (the ones that worked on the railroads), Blacks (slaves and their descendents), Jews (at one time considered the WORST kind of immigrant), women (from Eve on up 'till now), Muslims/Arabs (Damn Sadam), and Japanese people (WWII), have all been oppressed and/or under serious scrutiny. Right now Gays are fighting for more rights so right now everyone is talking/criticizing the homosexuals. In 10 years it might be a whole new group.

**Please keep in mind that the Bible was used to argue points about slavery, the Native American issue, and women wanting the right to vote.

Peace ya'll!

What if someone likes to belittle others and sees it as a challenge when someone else tries to belittle them.

You can only go so far with that quote. Everybody is not on the same level when it comes to doing unto others. What I might do may seem cool to me and flat out wrong to the next person.

I say if you are a christian, stick to what the bible says. We do need the bible for guidance. Yes it was used to justify things, but where did those passages come from, New or Old Testement?

Jesus' teachings are strictly in the New Testement. He even says, I know you've heard this but I came to say this..... meaning that some of the things you learned from the old testement has changed. In the New Testement it clearly shows that all men are equal in the eyes of the Lord.

So I say the bible (especially the new testement) is your guide. Use it.

P.S. I dont mean to pick and chose what you read, but you know that if you read "an eye for an eye" in the old testement, it has been corrected in the new testement (ie. turn the other cheek).

What happend to the post by Doggystyle? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif

I've tried to stay out of this fray, but the Holy Spirit just won't let me. I am a Christian. I have given my life to Christ and try to follow him in everything that I do and say. Do I fail? All the time!! But when I fall down, like Donnie McClurkin, I repent and get back up again, knowing that He forgives me. Jesus did say love everyone, but he was unwavering in his viewpoint on unrepentant sin. Unrepentant sin was an abombanation (sp?) in his eyes. Yes, he loved everyone, but he also got very angry with folks as well. Look at his view of the Pharisees. Look at how he threw the money changers out of the temple. Jesus did not say "Hey, I love you, so it's o.k." He said "Hey I love you and I want to join me he Heaven so change your ways." He forgave the woman who was about to be stoned, yes, but he told her "go and sin no more."
I have no hatred for homosexual (or liars, or , those having premarital sex or those that spew hate at others) nor do I condemn. But I also cannot say that it's o.k. It is also no t my job to judge those that are not Christians. It is my job to witness to those people (when given the opportunity and prompted by the Holy Spirit) and get them to know the full saving grace of Jesus Christ. If a person professes Christ then it is also important, I think, to share what I know about God's will for our lives (again, when given the opportunity and when prompted by the Holy Spirit). Do I have all of answers? Of course not! But I share what I know and it is up to the Holy Spirit to do the convicting, not me. I know that God will judge ME on those times when I was silent and should have spoken up (that's when confronted with any sin) as well as the times when I willfullly disobeyed him. I

much respect...

alas this thread is going nowhere. we are so caught up in the so-called "sin" of homosexuals that no one has even thought about the sin of murdering innocent people in the name of eliminating gay people. or what about those people who as i said in my very first post who kill doctors who perform abortions in the sake of preserving life. or what about the men and women who murdered black people like james byrd. or what about the hateful words that cause pain and wound young minds. what about that?

we get so caught up in trying to cast sin onto homosexuals. that we have not once thought about the hatred that we spew
towards one another and other groups.

the topic of this thread was not just about homosexuality and the question whether it was a sin or not. the topic of this thread was about hatred and oppression. how one group...ours...African-Americans...who were enslaved in the most brutal slavery system up to that time that was known to man...and who thusly has suffered and continues to suffer the remnants of that enslavement through our mental, physical, and spiritual shackles...could in with sanity spew hatred onto another group when we know personally that hatred is the reason why our ancestors were lynched, raped, tortured, denied access to education etc.

why would we...who claim to have suffered through the most oppressive system in the world...and many of our ancestors were killed in the most devastating holocaust (transportation through the diaspora) have the audacity to hate another group. and since we do this...does this make us any better...than people like Dr. William Pierce, writer of The Turner Diaries (a book that describes a race war where all the blacks are murdered by the so-called "superior" whites/aryans and it is the book Timothy McVeigh used as the basis for his Oklahoma City bombing) and Nathan Hale, leader of the World Church of the Creator will str8 up tell you that black people need to go back to Africa at the very least but in their minds the best solution...is the ultimate solution...i.e. extermination.

now tell me how in our right minds could we on one hand embrace and act out (through words or deeds) their beliefs about other groups and yet still hate them for what they say about us? a double standard...i think so.

in any case...for those that responded i appreciated it. i appreciated that everyone gave their opinions...whether i agreed with you or not...its always nice to deviate from fun topics to talk about more intellectual ones from time to time.

i just suggest that no one else post on this one...basically because we are only going in circles...we don't want to focus on the big picture.

thank you again.

peace,
lastpoet

[This message has been edited by lastpoetnsite (edited April 11, 2001).]