Lots of things have been going on for years and years. It doesn't make it acceptable no matter how long it's done. I'm not saying this is or isn't acceptable. I don't care really too much about it. But if you are doing something that can be interpreted as hazing unless you come out to explain why it's not hazing, then you are increasing the risk you bring into your chapter. And then doing this in public, increases the risk further. The funny thing is after accepting this risk, someone acts like they're shocked that they get accused of hazing - I accept the fact that if I play blackjack and don't count my cards and keep track of probabilities in my head properly I can lose it all.

But it seems to me like the fraternity is creating a situation whereby lavaliering becomes "hos before bros" as someone so elegantly put it. There is nothing positive about hurting your chapter so I don't understand why that option is even there. Why not give her a charm or whatever and it would be just as serious if you wanted to interpret it like that.

On top of that, no matter how "serious" it is, the message I get is that it's cool to put "hos before bros" because there's a big celebration (after getting flogged with food) and all these people are happy for you.

-Rudey

I think the tradition is stupid and people shouldn't do it.

But the bigger crime in my mind is the jagoffs who saw it happen over and over and were fine with it until they realized they could get a fraternity who they happened to have a beef with in trouble. That's so bogus I can't even begin to discuss it.

I know.

-Rudey
--What would Nietzsche say?

Definition of Hazing by "expert" Hank Nuwer:

committing acts against an individual or forcing an individual into committing an act that
creates a risk of harm in order for the individual to be initiated into or affiliated with an organization. (my own emphasis)

Technically, not hazing. Traditions are important to groups, no matter how asinie or rediculous they may seem to outsiders. Since none of us are members of that fraternity, were not there at the time of the incident and have only second-hand knowledge of the incident, we cannot for sure say exactly what happened or what the member's feelings were about the incident. Maybe the brothers told the guy what time he was going to be wrapped, maybe the guy got to pick out what was being tossed on him, we don't know. Have there ever been any other reports of injury from similar incidents?

The very act of lavaliering a lady is in itself a rite of passage, why shouldn't the man giving the lavalier have one of his own? Who said it was a punishment? Why must it be construed as one? Are we really in an age of "enlightenment"? Nothing is innocent fun or sacred anymore, which is a shame. Cynicism reigns supreme.

At convention earlier this year, one workshop included information on "hazing after initation." Regardless of the participants willingness, certain actions can still be considered hazing. So... i guess technically incidents like these could be considered hazing, even if the activity is between initiated Brothers (not member to pledge / membership candidate - whatever your org. calls it).

BluTang,

Is it the action itself that is considered hazing, or the cirumstances, too?

I know that in NPHC organizations (and by extension, any GLO on an HBCU campus) that post-pledging is considered hazing. That is to say, a new member class has been initiated, but the old members make the new members feel that they have to submit to hazing in order to be considered "real" members. Technically, they are members, so they can do what they choose, but through the power of coercion, persuasion, or threat of ostracization....I would consider it hazing.

Rudey, A++++++'s to your posting on this situation!:)

Is not Lav. or Pining a Lady a time of Celebration for the Brohter?

Hell to throw Crap at him is ridiculous. Maybe it is not hazing, but in legal circles, that is Assault!:mad: If found guilty, that could mean Jail Time!:(
If it is reported by an other party, it is hearsay by the police who will investigate it. But if it is seen by an officer, dead bang, go to Jail!
It is not funny then, period.

If a Brother places His Badge on someone, that is serious Stuff. I would never give my Badge up. No matter what!

What kind of respect would I have for Brothers who threw stuff at me, tied to a tree.

Boy are We having Fun Now!:eek:

I agree, this incident is unacceptable. I consider it to be hazing, but what ever the word is used to describe this behavior, it should never be tolerated.

With regard to pinning with a badge, Phi Kappa Psi prohibits that, but we do have a "Sweetheart Pin" that may be purchased and used for pinning.

Around our campus Lavilering is symbolic of a serious realtionship and pinning is pre-engagement.

Not quite sure that I understand how the bros before hoes fits into thie entire senerio.

Yes they only throw food that is soft or liquid ie: syrup and flour.

And in most of the chapters here the brothers take a vote before a girl can be lavilered or pinned to their chapter. Then they go sing and present her with the respective token.

This is all done in good fun. And FYI around here you don't want to go swimming... the river that runs through campus has signs posted everywhere saying its contaminated and entering the water, drinking the water or eating fish out of it is hazordous to your health.

Pinning Thread
 

Since the subject of pinning traditions came up, there is a thread here.

The message from the workshop was that actions (not circumstances) constitute hazing.

i agree with everything rudey has said. well said. :)

although i dont think it would be considered hazing, beacuse it is my understanding that many orgs hjazing policy is only towards pledges (correct me if i am wrong, please, seeing as i am making such a sweeping statement), it does seem a bit sketchy and i could see how it could be twisted to be considered hazing by some greek life offices.

Alpha Xi Delta, Phi Kappa Psi, and other respected GLOs belong to the FIPG. Their manual can be downloaded here: http://www.fipg.org/media/FIPGMAN2001.pdf

The FIPG's section on hazing begins on page 41 of that manual.

No where is hazing defined as an activity that is exclusively targeted at pledges.

On page 44, there is an apendix that enumerates many, but not all hazing activities. The phrase "pledged or initiated members" is repeatedly used to explicitly demonstrate that initiated members may be subjected to hazing as well.