Well answered again, AOII_LB!

I'm a bit confused as well about why this seems to be such an issue now? I know that SAI is a fellow greek organization, but (and I may offend every SAI, Sinfonian, DO, and so forth members) there is a difference between historically social NPC GLO membership and your organizations. I am NOT saying one is better or worse than the other, not at all. But, these GLOs are different. I'm guessing that when the music-centric GLOs were founded, dual-membership in an NPC or NIC group was not a normal occurrence, and therefore each group's badge requirements weren't a problem. Luckily, in 2003 things are different. It's not as unique of a situation to see NPC members in the music sororities, so I guess this issue would come up from time to time. As members of AOII we are allowed to pursue membership in various service and departmental greek letter organizations, so theoretically this could be an issue for a member.

I think the greater question here isn't why AOII (or ZTA) or SAI do what they do, but how members of each group handle compliance with each organization's badge expectations? Say Annie Active is a member of AOII and a music student. She is invited to join her school's chapter of SAI, and accepts. One day she's getting all dressed up to go to some non-AOII and non-SAI function, so which badge does she choose to wear? That's Annie Active's decision, and it's not our place to tell her which badge to wear or which one is more important (other than ensuring that as a member of each organization, Annie Active knows the proper way to wear her badges!) Both AOII (and ZTA!) and SAI think HER badge is most important. You know something, that's okay. Really, it is.

I guess my question for sairose is: Are you considering dual NPC membership at some point? If so, was learning that other NPC groups require their badge to be worn in the same manner as your SAI badge upsetting to you? I can understand that. I have no doubt that SAI means just as much to you as AOII means to me. You wouldn't want to put SAI 'second' to a NPC sorority, just as I wouldn't put my boyfriend's badge/pin, little sister pin (remember, I'm a 'back in the day' girl!) or other honorary pin equal or above my AOII badge.

sairose, if you aren't pursuing dual membership, may I ask why it seems to be so important to you that AOII changes her long-held policy on how her members wear their badges? If it's none of my business just tell me, I won't be offended at all. I really want to understand the real reason behind this. Right now, I just feel like you're attacking AOII for some reason, and I hope I've just misunderstood that along the way.

Fraternally,
Christin

(Edited because I can't spell 'theoretically' before the 1st glass of Diet Coke!)

I don't believe that anyone's intention has been to say that one organization is better than or more important than another, but are acknowleging the difference in the organizations. I have to say that the women that I knew who were members of both ZTA and SAI loved both of their organizations, while realizing that they were very different organizations.

I think that the women I knew found the easiest way to distinguish which badge to wear was to decide for which organization they were getting dressed up. That's to say that on Tuesdays, ZTAs wore badge attire in recognition of Tuesdays being our chapter meeting day. So on Tuesdays they wore the ZTA badge. If they were going to a recital or music reception or SAI meeitng, they wore their SAI badge. And to be honest, the women I went to school with didn't dress up unless they had to, so what to wear on another day wasn't an issue.

I think the best way to look at it is this: Think of SAI and another organization that a woman is a member of as a parent who loves their children.

My parents love my brother and I equally, though we are quite different. They don't love either more or less than the other, though our relationships with our parents are very different.

~Allison

>>>would it be wrong to wear it *beside* the SAI badge?<<<


Yes, it would be wrong as far as AOII is concerned, and from the thread, probably as far as ZTA is concerned as well. While I don't really see the problem in this (and I don't agree that AOII needs to "rethink" it's policy) if you are considering dual membership at some point and it is a problem for you, then you may want to investigate the rules of the various GLO's at your campus before you make a decision to join.

In my continuing research on this topic, I just thought I would let you all know that Sigma Kappa has the same policy posted on their website as well. I have been checking most of the NPC websites, and SK was the only one so far that I have found that has the same policy, but I haven't gotten to the large majority of the websites yet, and will be doing so today. :)

**edited to add: In my cursory perusal of every NPC orgs website I only found 3 that actually put it on the page where I was quickly able to find it and they are: AOII(obviously), Theta Phi Alpha, and Sigma Kappa. If anyone in any other org can find it on your respective website I apologize, I was doing this before I ran off to my class today.**

Alpha Gamma Delta also has the same rule: all honor, professional, or men's badges must be pinned lower and to the left of the Badge. I'm going to hazard the guess that almost all NPCs have the same tradition.

That's just the way its always been. I know that isn't particularly comforting to you, sairose, but I don't think any of the NPCs will be changing this policy anytime soon.

Tri Sigma has the same rule as above regarding other badges worn with our badge.

I'm not offended, AOIIalum. We are somewhat different, which has its pluses and its minuses.

However, I will repeat what I have put on these boards before. (Those folks, and there are probably lots of them ;), who are sick of hearing this from me are welcome to skip to the next post.)

Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia, both in terms of history and the present-day, is a social fraternity. We were founded as a social fraternity. It was not until the mid-20th century that we began to move in the direction of being a professional fraternity, finally "finishing" that move in the late 60s and early 70s. In the mid-1980s, we made a firm decision to reject professional status and reaffirm our identity as a social fraternity. Much of the Fraternity's work over the last two decades has been to move us back to our roots.

Yes, we're different from other social fraternities. Due to the way our history progressed, our chapters often have little direct contact with other Greeks on campus (or at least non-music Greeks), whether through IFC or otherwise. This seems to be changing, though, as more chapters are joining their campus IFCs. Our focus on music certainly makes us different, although we certainly think it is a very good difference. But we are a social fraternity.

Now back to our regularly-scheduled thread. I'll try to refrain from singing this song again for a while.

I'm sorry to all those who I have offended. I didn't actually mean to start a flame war, and I am sorry.

And I didn't mean to direct all my opinions toward AOII, but to all sororities who have this policy.

I understand why a men's badge or honorary badge would be pinned below a NPC sorority pin. But NOT a professional such as SAI, because we ARE Greek, very much so. Yes, our focus is somewhat different...but we have Rush, rituals, big and little sisters, philanthropies, conventions, etc etc. Our fraternity is near and dear to us, and if I were to join another sorority I would be crushed if I could not wear my SAI badge next to the other.

And maybe the groups won't change this anytime soon. Or ever. But...really listen to my concerns about this. Yes, each group has traditions, but sometimes those traditions change. For instance I'm willing to say almost all GLOs rituals have changed somewhat over the years before finally becoming what it is today...ours did. So why would it be such a bad thing to change a badge policy? Do you see what I am saying? Especially when the other GLOs badge policy conflicts.

The reason this whole topic came up is not because I was going to pledge AOII or another sorority, but because a friend of mine wants to pledge AOII in the fall and then hopefully SAI in the spring, so I just wanted to find out what she could do with her badges if she joins both GLOs.

I am truly sorry I came off the way I did. SOmetimes online, it is hard to portray what you are really meaning to say. :) I didn't mean to attack AOII in any way. I do NOT agree with their badge policy, but it is important to know that if SAI was to have that policy I would object to that as well. I believe if a woman joins 2 sororities, she should be able to display BOTH badges, side by side, at all times, instead of having to wear one above the other or to have to choose which one to wear. However, I didn't mean that to come off as an attack.

Besides, how could I attack a sorority with the same lovely symbol(red rose) and colors as my own? :D

But on that note - men's groups are also Greek. If I ever get pinned I would like to "twin" my badge with the sweetheart badge but I'm not sure if that's permissible, so until I found out from our International Ritual officer, I would just wear it lower and left.

Also, I went through our Bylaws and Rules and couldn't find anything about other badges being worn at that level or twinned. I don't know if any other Gamma Phis on here know about that or not.

Oops--sorry--forgot to finish my thought. :) I meant that I would understand a sweetheart badge not being worn to the same level since you don't belong to that org, and an honorary one I understand because you don't have the ritual, etc etc. But GLOs like SAI, TBS, DO, and others are different because you actually BELONG to that org. Sorry for the confusion. :)

OK I get it now! Thanks for clarifying for me. At my campus, SAI members kind of isolated themselves from the social GLOs so there weren't any double members.

(slight hijack - sorry)

I don't have my Constitution or Standing Rules with me... but can any Kappas confirm/deny that we don't have many rules concerning that wearing of the badge (minus that only initiated members can wear it)? I don't seem to remember any and I thought I read the Constitution over carefully.

If you could PM me, we can make sure this hijack doesn't disrupt this thread too much.

(sorry!)

(end hijack)

No, I don't get tired of reading it. I like learning about your fraternity through your posts, MysticCat.

In my experiences, Sinfonia and Delta Omicron was quite exclusive to the schools of music on the campuses (campi?) I had knowledge of. There were plenty of NPC women in Delta Omicron at my alma mater. It was normal, it was accepted, but I can't think of a time when it caused a conflict for those members with dual memberships. The commitment a member had to their NPC seemed to take precedence, but I do not know if that was a choice each member made of themselves, the 'norm' for my campus, or just what I noticed myself.

Mystic Cat--does Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia allow dual membership in Sinfonia and and any other social fraternal group? I admit, my knowledge is limited and perhaps it would be best for me to check your (inter)national website?

sairose, I'm sure you never intended to start a flame war and asked your question in a sincere quest for knowledge. Entitling the thread as you did, and some of your comments throughout, led me to believe you had some kind of personal issue with AOII. I do not know if you can take any comfort in this, but this ongoing thread has caused me to do a little research about your sisterhood. I like what I found, and congratulate your founders for realizing that there was a need for an organized social outlet celebrating and promoting what they loved, their common bonds in music. I've learned that membership in SAI is restricted, to those with some kind of connection to music and possibly the arts (unsure on that so far) and membership in a social sorority is allowed.

I respectfully disagree on both counts.

Not all GLOs rituals have changed through the years, because not all GLOs have had to change. Some of the sororities and fraternities were blessed with forward-thinking founders who somehow had the knowledge and insight to create rituals that would stand the test of time through the decades.

It would be a bad thing to change an existing badge policy when it has worked and continues to work for its' members. If the general membership has reason to request a change, each GLO has a procedure in place to mandate the change. If the general membership does not have a reason to do so, why should we change it? I love what AOII stands for, and part of that is held within my badge.

We may just have to respectfully agree to disagree on the badge wearing policies. I doubt you'll find any AOII who will say we should change, because I believe that we all agree with what AOII stands for. Hopefully, we can all accept that each group believes that each member should hold her/his pledge pin or badge closest to their heart, in a place of supreme importance over all other organizational jewelry.

Fraternally,
Christin

I understand what you're saying, but then how would you decide which Badge to wear closest to your heart? Most organizations have rules that stipulate that the badge be worn over the heart (Alpha Phi does not), so even if you place them side by side, by placing one closer to your heart than the other, you're indirectly giving preference to one organization over another.


It's confusing, I know - but I think that the best solution in all of this would be for your friend to wear her SAI badge at SAI events, and then maybe wear a rose pin or other AOII jewelry to signify her link to AOII, and then at AOII events, wear her AOII badge and whatever 'recognition' pin (or other item of jewelry) that has special meaning to initiated members of SAI.

I don't think anybody is criticizing each other's organizations, so I don't think there's a need for anybody to get defensive here. I think most NPC organizations have similar policies to AOPi's, so it's not a matter of "attacking" one specific organization. (I can't speak for Tri Delta since I don't know our policies -- it's a nonissue for me because I don't wear any other jewelry with our badge.) It's a legitimate issue, though: what if you have two sororities that you love equally much, and you don't want to "play favorites" by picking only one pin?

I think the thing is that these policies were formed when it was very rare for someone to belong to more than one fraternity or sorority, especially a second social-type group like some chapters of SAI are. And just because our policies were right for the times back then doesn't mean they're still the best for the times now. Just because something is traditional doesn't mean it's flawless, and I think it may be time to at least go over the policies and see if there's a better policy that might work for today.

But until that happens (and it probably won't), of course, the easiest thing is just to not wear the two pins at the same time.