Re: Heller, et al.
 

Maybe you should adopt the quota system.

Re: Why Anti-Expansion?
 

If the sorority system is strong, and the sororities have large houses, large membership except for one and no shortage of membership then why the hell would you want to change it?

If the fraternies have lower numbers, less PNMs, lower GPAs and more more inactive chapters then how is their system better? Wasn't it Wilson Heller's theory that bigger is better? If the sororities have a larger average chapter size then aren't they better according to Wilson Heller's theory?

disagree, but
 

this may not be what you want to hear in this uni-sex milieu...
but women's groups are much different than mens' and while
we hail the difference, the girls will often stay together more than the boys...the guys, if they differ considerably, will tell you to
go to H, leave and the girls will simply not.
Agree or disagree...whatever, I base this on forty plus years of
observing, volunteering....what have you?
Further, the quota system has kept women's groups snobbish,
and huge numbers do not pledge...
believe me, folks, I am on your side, I want us all to win. But the
facts are there, you do not write the checks, pay the bills....
I hope to live to see the day when we all have a good Greek experience and when we do go out into the world we do so with
having had a living laboratory...the chapter....to thank for a job well done.
There will always be those on the bottom....quotas will not help.
Headquarters may/may not want to fool with chapters which are
consistently weak. And sometimes us alums simply wear out trying to keep a group of weenies afloat. Sometimes it is better
simply to pull out and return anew, stronger, and make something positive out of it all.
Let us continue to discuss, even disagree, but remember, us oldies are eager for you guys to win...we did, and we still remember. Hugs...now get busy....and I speak for uncle Tommy Earp (yes he is related to Wyatt) of Lambda Chi, too.

Whether you agree with Erik Conard is not the main theme on this thread.

I and He have the same feelings from both of our long experience with our respective Fraternitys.

I have always been against HUGE Chapters where you do not know your own Brothers or Sisters! Maybe that is my small scholl learning but it will hold true to any campi!

As was mentioned in another thread, the big chapters get recognize while the smaller ones may not so much as people wonder why they are smaller?

The reason I started my Local is because I am that way, do something new. But let me go back, I pledged a local that Affiliated with a Large National but left, so to speak!

The pledge as many as you can is the wrong/right way?

We all want GOOD people, but with the cost of living, school, dues (Risk Management Ins), and $$ for summer jobs going down, it is very hard for students to make it without grants, scholarships, and part time jobs while in school!

But to get back to the subject:

With out a strong Greek Community and backing, we all will slowly dwindle, ergo the difference of Fraternitys and Soroitys on campus such as has been posted!

Small campi are no different, we had to work with STG for Homecoming (6 Fraternitys, 3 Soroitys). Actually it was a good thing to interact with another Fraternity!

Students today just as when I was in college are looking for something different to associate with! There for, why not the NEW Soroity? NPC and thier quota/college as well sucks!

Sink or swim with the flow, but do not hold back the possibility to have Greeks Grow on your campus!

I think Erik will agree with me, WE as Greeks are our own worst enemies!:(

good words, all
 

Yes, Tom, especially your comment about us being our own worst enemy. One campus chapter spent virtually all of their first semester budget on booze and food for rush. They opened
their house to all. The freeloaders came in, drank the booze, ate the food and continued to badmouth the greeks afterwards.
If brother greeks are our enemies, then who are these "takers", those jerks who constantly belittle the greeks...some of these, by the way, wear sweatshirts with GDI on them...do they crave identification or what? It is really silly for us to fight amongst ourselves, look foolish, when we all offer like experiences.
A reply, perhaps tongue in cheek, saying why don't we adopt the
quota system...if the girls are so large and successful.
Good point on the surface, but when you cannot even get enough men to sign up for rush what the heck good are quotas?
At the U where only 200 men sign up for rush for 29 houses but
over 2,000 girls for 13 sororities...how can one make a comparison? Quota, schmota...
There is, good people, simply a differing in sexes...sorry, unisex
and co-ed chapter freaks...you are dead wrong. Vive la diference!
BUT, as in sales, out of sight, out of mind...OR, put a brick on your desk with a sign "This brick will sit here all day and neither
rush or pledge a man."
We must work on it 'til we get it right.
While Wilson B. Heller, Pike, may have over-killed size and may have come across as grumpy, he did love us all...he really did.
Did you know he was a WWI aviator and ace? He was modest.
As regards quality vs. quantity...I never espoused getting wimps
in a chapter simply to enhance numbers. This is a given, and I'd
hope you all are smart enough to know that! Keep talkin, troops!
The Fraternity experience is well worth saving. Cheers! Uncle Erik, old Kansas TKE alum now in Colorado

Yes You Are!!!!!:) To all of the Above!!!!:D

Cannot wait till next Year!!!!! Our Time!:cool:

Cranky Ole Fart! Yea For Cranky Ole Farts!!!!!!!!:cool:

YOURS,

cranky old fart
 

cranky old fart, crusty old bastard--
I do not care what you call me,
BUT
let's continue to work on our clubs so you can become
CRANKY OLD FARTS....

E C, Youse Da Best!!!!!!!!:)

Dont think these damn Kids Understand rhe old days!:D

SH-t, they have NO Clue!:(

I do not understand when We talk, they do not listen!

E C Kids Will Be Kids!:D Thank Goodness!!! Oh well!:(

Re: cranky old fart
 

i love this!!!!

ok, here is my take. first of all, i hate quota. i came from the small house, but i would rather have 20 sisters who give 100%, instead of 80- 20 who give 100% and 60 who barely give 50%!!! i know that several chapters have 150+ members and i can't even imagine that (not on my campus, but elsewhere)!!! truthfully, in most cases, on a campus with glos that own their own houses, i feel that expansion is not welcome bc the current groups will have to fight harder to pay for members to fill their house. pure and simple. you have room for 100 girls to sleep, then you need 100 girls to pay to sleep there. if you have more competition, you are going to have to fight harder to get enough people to fill the beds. empty beds= loss of money.

then with the "quota" system, the national office has this "goal" that you must meet every time. if you don't you get some sort of talk about how you didn't do it again. you start to feel like crap bc it doesn't matter that you just doubled the size of your group, but you didn't meet quota. the focus shifts from sisterhood and bonding to a constant fight to rush, cob, etc. the next thing you know, it is not fun to be in a sorority any more!

nationally speaking, there are groups with many more chapters than others in both ifc and npc. should the larger groups like teke and chi-o stop expanding bc there are groups that don't have nearly as many chapters? let's face it, more chapters= more members= more money. i am sure that when the npc sends out info on groups looking to affiliate, there are some glos who just say, we don't have the resources to even get started on this campus. i bet the same goes with ifc, too. i really don't feel like this is a purely local issue of large v. small. i think it is a more global issue.

so what do we do? how can we take care of each other not only on our individual campi, but at the npc and ifc level?

healthy differences
 

it is good we are talkin' it is good we have differences it is good
we recognize the need to hug one another
yes, while times are indeed a-changin' we have something to offer more than semester hours, diplomas, credentials....
it is called FRATERNITY
please don't forget it. from someone who cares; call me
that cranky old codger from Colorado--- Erik

OK. Here's How I Think I Works.
 

And this should be compatible with Wilson Heller's theories. In practice, there are no 'freestanding' fraternity or sorority chapters. Everyone operates within some system, and because of that each chapter is effected by its peers. For instance, at Penn State you are considered to be a large fraternity if you have fifty men. At Ole Miss you are small if you have less than 100. Both schools have excellent fraternity systems, and each system has its own standard of measurement. On my campus, the Panhellenic sororities all have big houses, and chapters of 100+. But on the same campus, the system of historically Black sororities do not have houses and their chapters are much smaller. And the Multicultural sororities are even smaller still. There is a natural heirarchy that forms within each system, and everyone seems happy. Within each system there are those who are 'large' and those who are considered 'small'. Heller's point is that in any system, circumstances and Human Nature favor the large.
In a system of large chapters - fraternity or sorority - various events and programs form around the numbers available. If you have a 'small' chapter of only sixty-five women and the largest ones have 100+ then you are hard-pressed to compete for the various honors. Dynamic and aggressive and ambitious women are attracted to the chapters that appeal to their personalities. Unfortunately, the reverse is also true. Those who are reticent, les ambitious, less energetic are attracted to the groups that reflect those traits. That's why they always seem to struggle.
So, there's no magic number. The trick is to conform to the standards of the system you're in. Heller said that every wanted quality follows size. For fraternities at Penn state, 'size' means 55-60 men. At Ole Miss it means 150.

Re: OK. Here's How I Think I Works.
 

Antitrust? - quota, voting not to expand
 

Can anyone explain how things like quote and other Panhel agreements, which limit the number of new members or new chapters, do not violate the antitrust laws? For example, a Panhel voting to not allow another group on campus because all sororities must reach quote or total first, could be seen as an oligopoly (i.e., existing NPC sororities) using trade association agreements (Panhel) to prevent new competitors (a new NPC sorority) into the market (campus).

It is one thing to have recognition requirements like bylaws, officers, advisors, insurance, and existing for a year, before recognizing a new sorority for the health of the system. It is another thing to "prevent" any new sororities from starting, which would seem to be against the antitrust laws and using market power illegally. Anyone have any insight on antitrust laws?

Re: Antitrust? - quota, voting not to expand
 

I haven't taken antitrust yet (actually not sure if i'll end up taking it before graduating law school), but the short answer to your question is:

GLOs are NOT BUSINESSES!

They're private social organizations, I'm guessing most of them are registered as not-for-profits.

Therefore antitrust laws have absolutely ZERO to do with them.

Not antitrust
 

Also, the other NPC sororities would not expand to a cmpus anyway thet has not formaly agreed to expansion. So non-NPC sororities can expand there a lot of the time, it just will not have any support form any NPCs.