Gina_Lynn the points you make are valid, but it seems like very few greeks I have met see things the way you do...obviously many more greeks think that hazing is acceptable hence all the law suits and suspensions. I wonder what greeks would do if their orgs were sued right out of existence? That's a good question how would you guys feel if your orgs went bankrupt and ceased to exist due to hazing and law suits?

Taykimson,

Although I am not in a BGLO, I think you make an excellent and valid point.

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Sincerity, Loyalty, Unity
Sigma Lambda Upsilon: Hasta La Muerte!

[This message has been edited by Serenity (edited July 09, 2000).]

Taykimson,

To the extent that the 10000lb weight analogy is accurate, I agree, but I have never, NEVER heard of an incident of hazing in which some non-collegiate member didn't either know something about what was going on, have reason to suspect what was going on, or was involved in the underground process. This tells me that Alums will haze with or without the undergrads. Its a problem with the system, not the type of chapter.

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If you can't raise conciousness, at least raise hell!--Rita Mae Brown

Gina_lynn,

There are more hazing incidents with undergrad - PERIOD. This is evidenced by chapter suspensions. The majority of suspension are for undergrad chapters.

Are graduate members looking the other way? Yes, in some cases. But for those same grad members that choose to look the other way, this does not mean they practice this activity in their grad chapter.

Again, as I stated in my original post, naturally I am not for eliminating the undergrad experience especially since I was initiated undergrad. I am making a point.

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Alpha Kappa Alpha
17-Alpha Phi-91



[This message has been edited by Taykimson (edited July 09, 2000).]

I hear you TrueGreekLove and Gina-lynn. The sad thing about it TrueGreekLove is I think what you suggested is exactly what will have to happen for people to understand they must follow the rules.

My personal opinion, I don't think my sorority or any other organization would allow hazing to destroy the sorority as a whole. However, I do believe my sorority would do something as drastic as say - eliminating the undergraduate process to ensure future livelihood of the sorority. I'm sure some of you will say that I'm truly out to lunch especially given undergrad is where it all began. But that is my opinion. Do you keep the 1000 lb weight and allow the entire ship to sink? Or do you throw the weight overboard and keep moving? Not to suggest that undergrad chapters are dead weight, I was initiated undergrad and would be very upset if undergrad were eliminated. On the other hand, I don't want to see a 92 year legacy reduced to a memory either.

Another side note, I'm sure there were those that say 15 years or so ago would have never thought that above ground pledging would not officially be part of the undergrad process...

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Alpha Kappa Alpha
17-Alpha Phi-91



[This message has been edited by Taykimson (edited July 09, 2000).]

Wow! that is a truely scary idea that you brought up about the possible elimination of the undergrad chapters. That is like taking away the very essence of the greek orgs. Like you said that's where it all started. Membership would probably drop drastically considering that most people go greek undergrad and want to have the experience of pledging. It seems hard enough to get undergrads to continue on to grad chapter from what I hear, so I am sure it undergrads coming in strictly through grad would never happen. Shoot, one of my good friends love him to death but the boy mentally never transitioned over to his grad chapter for his frat.. I mean dang some people swear such allengience (sp?) to their undergrad chapter you would swear they didn't join an org but just that chapter. If the idea of maybe not having an org to belong to anymore or possibly losing the whole undergrad process as a whole doesn't scare people than I don't know what will. Considering that I want to plege...I would be seriously upset to work my butt off for the love of my org only to have a few fools cause me to lose my org.

I have spoken on a this before. As an interest no matter how much I want to be a part of my chosen org. I will not take a beat down. Period. I wish that the nphc orgs. would stop risking the possible suspensions of there chapters for such petty bs. I am quite sure most people would have no problem with mip as long as it does not get physical. I ask those who take part in this kind of behavior, just how does hitting someone help them to be a better soror or frat?! I know a girl who went through the whole process (beat down and all), but was denied membership at the end. All the girls she was online with consider her "paper". Is that fair? I feel bad for her because they give her no respect. The thing is though that looks bad on their org. When will all the greeks realize that you can not control how someone came in. If they are in then they are in. It does not matter if you do not consider them your soror or frat, still they are. How can someone say "well i just can not love her/him the same cause she is paper" please. You all should love each other regardless. Then you want to teach your interests and prospectives about bonding and respect yet some of you do not even respect each other. I have said it before but let me say it again: When a parent beats a child is that out of love? When a man beats a woman is that out of love? I think not! So when A sister (of an org) or a brother (of an org) beats their pledgees how the HELL is that out of love. Giving one wood or whatever kind of beating one may recieve while online does not teach them their history nor does it teach them how to bond with their line sisters or brothers. It does not make one love the org. more. What it does do is create resentment. Alot of which is pointed at those that did not recieve the same MIP as those that were hazed. Instead of resenting people that are "paper" (as you all call them) what you should be doing is resenting the ones that kicked your a**. If the MIP process for some orgs and chapters had not become so fierce, then there may not have ever been someone out there to call "paper".

You said it girl. Those "real" sorors and frats need to keep it "real" and be not just financial but active with their time, talents and abilities. They down those "paper" folks but, while they do nothing for the organization besides publicize their existence when they sport paraphenalia.

I would have to disagree with your reasoning behond "real" pledges being more active than paper. I would have to say it may be more likely because the "paper" ones are downed and condemed so much for the way that they entered the "sisterhood or brotherhood". I mean to have your sorors or frats do everything but call you or treat you like a child of God is a hurtful thing. We need to embrace everyone regardless of how they "got in".
You asked why would someone who is "paper" remain active? Well maybe it is because they really love the organization. How about for the same reasons that you are active, if infact you are. Just something to think about.

Until we stop glorifying pledging and talking about the way we pledged there will be problems with the MIP process.There is no PLEDGING in the NPHC. Someone mentioned the fact that interests want to be hazed so they won't be called "paper" . Why the need to satisfy an interest? We have a process to follow and as a member why would I jeporadize my pearls, which I proclaim to love so dearly, to give an initiate the right to say they were pledged.
The only paper any interested party should be concerned with is the one that says Mary Sue is a member of XYZ Sorority or Fraternity. What you did to earn that paper is between you and the members that brought you through. But you have it and it has been signed, sealed and delivered from your National office. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

That 1000lb weight is getting heavier, note the number of suspended undergrad chapters. If they can't follow the rules we can't allow a few to jeopordize the future for all.
So eventually all will be disbaned.

PEOPLE WAKE UP! WE ARE GONNA LET THIS WHOLE DEBATE BRING US TO OUR DOWNFALL. YOU DON'T THINK IT CAN HAPPEN? KEEP DISRESPECTING YOUR FELLOW FRAT/SOROR ON THE BASIS OF HOW THEY CAME INTO YOUR BOND. THAT'S JUST WHAT THOSE ANTI-GREEK PEOPLE WANT. WE ARE TOTALLY LACKING ON THE LEVEL OF SISTERHOOD/BROTHERHOOD EXEMPLIFIED BY OUR FOUNDERS. OUR FOUNDERS ARE TURNING OVER IN THEIR GRAVES. WE WERE ALL FOUNDED TO UPLIFT OUR COMMUNITY AND TO SERVE THEM. NOT TO BE PLEDGED. YOU CAN JOIN MANY OTHER ORGANIZATIONS JUST TO BE PLEDGED AND TO SAY YOU BELONG TO SOMETHING SECRET. IF THAT'S THE CASE, THEN TO EACH IT'S OWN. IF YOU WANNA SERVE THE COMMUNITY, THEN STOP THIS BULLSHIT OVER PAPER V. PLEDGING. WE KEEP REHASHING THIS WHEN OUR COMMUNITIES ARE IN DIER NEED OF BETTER SCHOOLS. WE KEEP KILLING PLEDGES WITHOUT EVEN A THOUGHT ON HOW WE KEEP GIVING PEOPLE A REASON TO SUE US OUT OF EXISTENCE. WAKE UP! THIS IS THE TIME FOR US TO COME TOGETHER AS ONE AND SHOW THE WORLD THAT WE ARE A UNITED FORCE. BUT WE CAN'T DO THAT IF WE FIGHT WITH EACH OTHER ABOUT THE INTAKE PROCESS. NO ONE CAN CONTROL HOW THEY WERE BROUGHT INTO THE BOND. BIG BROTHERS, BIG SISTERS, AND ADVISORS HAD THE UPPERHAND. IF YOU WANNA BE MAD AT SOMEBODY, BE MAD AT THEM. THEY ARE THE ONES THAT MADE PEOPLE "PAPER". PEOPLE I'M SORRY IF I SOUND UPSET BUT THIS TOPIC IS GETTING AS OLD AS THE HAZING DEBATES AND THE WHY BGLO'S CAN'T GET ALONG. PEOPLE FOR THE LAST TIME, WAKE UP!

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KAPPA ALPHA PSI FRATERNITY, INC.
SPR 97
XI LAMBDA

Well said, Nupe4Life.

For the past 2 years I've had the joyous responsibility - as an undergrad - of redirecting my chapter's intake process from a hazing process to an fully functioning MIP process. It's been torturous for me - much worse than anything (and that was quite a bit) I endured while I 'pledged' - but it has proven successful and will continue to be successful. Is there a happy medium? Only if members first observe MIP then work (and it very hard work - much harder than swinging wood or belittling someone) to EDUCATE IN A BROTHERLY/SISTERLY MANNER their new inductees. Remember it is our priority as Sorors/Frat to caringly and carefully facilitate the elevation of our new inductees to the level of true Soror/Frat. Emancipated minds will understand what I mean, but those of you still warped by your shackles will twist my words.

Ok, Nupe4Life, you definitely got my attention and now I have the "Dap at the end of 'School Daze' ringing the bell and shouting WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE UPPPPPPPPPPPPPP! to the whole campus while Spike's dad's jazz score was playing in the background" visual. I am in complete agreement with your words.

My only addition: if people are so concerned about their organization's MIP process, GET AND STAY FINANCIAL, BE ACTIVE IN A CHAPTER/REGION, and BECOME A VOTING DELEGATE TO YOUR REGIONAL/NATIONAL DECISION-MAKING BODIES!!

VibrantEnchantress & Snazzylady:

Both of you have valid points, and I agree with of you.

I am very active. I was president this last year, and will remain active until I die.

I am not trying to generalize, but anything worth having, takes hard work. I just can't see how anyone who didn't go through anything can really appreciate what they have worked for. Sure, they'll be excited the first semester or two, but when the real work comes, they become dust in the wind or seem to all of a sudden have other obligations or just don't come through for the organization. I've seen it happen too many times on my campus. (not in my organization)

Nevertheless, I have seen dedicated members considered "paper", who work harder than anyone, so this discussion really will depend on individual perceptions and experiences.

-hey!!! i think everyone needs to chill for a minute, and clam down.

-TrueGreekLove, i think that your being a non-member of an NPHC org. prohibits you from accurately commenting on what is worthwhile and necessary for NPHC orgs.

-i am a member of Phi Beta Sigma (spr99), and when i came into my org, i was pledged. i truly believe that what me and my line brothers went through bonded us and made us realize the gravity of what we were undertaking; this is what I know personally. greekdom is a big priveledge and resposibilty, and entrance into a BGLO is not to be undertaken lightly. i love my organization and have a lot of pride in it. [if you were wondering, i AM financial]. this is why a lot of folks who were pledged have a problem with poeple who are "paper", they haven't worked nearly as hard coming in, and that is just the way some folks look at it.

-myself, i don't have a problem with ANYONE in my frat who is "paper", because when it all comes down to it, what i respect most of all is someone who works hard for sigma, period. once you're frat, you're frat and f*ck what anybody has to say about how you came in; i'm gonna respect you and treat you like my brother either way. i DO think, however, that going grad while you're an undergrad is a BAD idea. doing this undermines your whole fraternal experience, but that's another topic for later...

-it has been proven, through sociological research, that when people share a common hardship or experience, they form a unique bond. does this mean that beating someone's *ss is the only way, NO! pledging a BGLO should be difficult, but not health/life-threatening. so, i do believe that there is a happy medium. what it is remains to be seen. it will take courage among chapter leaders.

-members of organizations who don't do anything for that org. don't have a right to make another member feel bad because they didn't pledge. i have seen the disillusionment that comes from that. but by the same token, people who did not plegde don't have the right to judge a member who did. i have seen the hostility and the rage that comes from that. AND, non-members are not in a position to question the purpose of pledging or "going paper". where there is a choice, it is up to each individual to decide if he/she wants to risk serious injury to join an org. where there is no choice either way, you do what you gotta do if you feel that this particular org. truly has something to offer, and you have something to bring to it...

-and that's just MY $19.14 !!!