I agree, DeltAlum. In my experience, sensitivity training is all show and little value. Many if not most of the people who have to go through the training will make it quite clear that they're only there because they have to be and will not take it seriously. Many on the outside will see the whole thing as simply being for show.

Like you, I don't have the solution either. But I suspect that the only answer lies in not learing about gay people but rather in knowing and building respectful relationships (even if they are not friendships) with gay people. With that in mind, it seems that Greeks might make a lot more headway if they voluntarily undertake some projects and activities that call on them to know and work with some gay groups. Just a thought.

Many will see sensitivity training as "just for show," but it will at least look like the Greek system is making some sort of effort -- much better than doing nothing at all.

I don't know how much more the suggestion of "forming relationships with homosexuals" will accomplish, either. If undertaken voluntarily, only those who are already comfortable with homosexuality will volunteer -- and what would be the point of that? If forced, it will just lead to backlash, those being forced to do it will get angry, and it could possibly induce more negative situations, such as a particularly stupid fraternity boy calling a gay man a "f*g" to his face. I'd definitely try to avoid setting up that kind of a situation . . .

Like I said, I don't have all the answers here. You're right -- you can't force relationships, nor can you force opinion changes. But fraternities and sororities can decide that, as groups, it is in their best interests that they engage as groups in activities that will provide an opportunity for such relationships to be formed.

And I'm sorry, but I disagree on the sensitivity training. I think most people will see it as show, and therefore it will not look like the Greek system is making any effort (i.e., an effort undertaken only for show is not a real effort). Not really better than doing nothing, because it pretty much is the equivalent of doing nothing. If participants don't take it seriously, it can be worse than doing nothing, because too many people will say "But we took care of that problem; we did sensitivity training" and will act like the problem is solved. But that's just my opinion.

I am seriously playing devil's advocate here:

These people at this event have the right to freedom of speech. It may offend others, hurt their feelings and make them feel degraded, but nevertheless they can say what they want, when they want, by our constitution.
That is why the KKK is allowed to hold their rallies and say what they say!

Does that make what they say right? No, but it is their right. Now, if it was the guys up on stage complaining, I could understand because it was an attack against them (verbally) but the students that are offended are the gay students.

By the way- QUEER is not a PC term for a homosexual person.

No, but it is a term that many gays and gay groups will use about themselves -- you know, like "We're Here, We're Queer, Get Used to It!"

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Originally posted by Munchkin03


I was reading in the Advocate ........ was that there are a few national fraternities that have added to their bylaws that they do not discriminate against homosexuals, but a national sorority has yet to do the same thing.

I believe (an I could be wrong, but...) the reason that it took soroities longer then fraternities to add the "non discrimintory" clause is because women didn't feel this was happening as much in soroities... I know we've had lesbians in my chapter and it doesn't bother me at all. And actually I think for the most part, women are more accepting of homosexuality...now, before the guys attack me, I'm not saying guys CAN'T be accepting of it, there are just fewer that are- it's not a slam, it's in their nature...

What I find really interesting is that to my kids (two girls and one boy), homosexuality just isn't an issue. Their gay friends are just that...friends.

Actually, I know it isn't the MOST PC term, but it is a term that many younger members of the gay community have adopted to identify themselves, but like many other terms that are conisdered derragatory in nature some people identify with that term and others do not and perfer other terminology.

There is actually a very interesting bit of research in an article that was done that talks about the leadership in fraternities and sororities and gay/lesbian/bisexual members. What the study basically discovered a few interesting facts that will be replicated in follow up studies hopefully soon:

"Thus, a total of approximately 5 - 6% of the chapter membership was known by the
respondents to be gay/bisexual. The women reported knowing with certainty that an average of
2.9 fellow members were lesbian/bisexual, with an average chapter size of 81, meaning that a
total of approximately 3 - 4% of the chapter membership was known to be lesbian or bisexual.
The actual percentages of lesbigay members would, of course, be higher, to include those
others not known with certainty by the respondents to be lesbigay."

"The data collected suggests that lesbigay students join fraternities and sororities for reasons
similar to those one would expect from a sample of heterosexual students. The top three
reasons listed were (1) friendship and camaraderie, (2) social activities, and (3) a support group
and sense of belonging. "

"One area where lesbigay fraternity/sorority members appear to differ from their heterosexual
peers is in chapter leadership. Over 80% of the men and over 60% of the women had held at
least one of the following executive committee positions in their chapter: president, vice
president, secretary, treasurer, new member educator, rush chair and social chair. Over 20% of
the men had served as president of their chapter, although only 6% of the women had served as
president. "

"Over 70% of the respondents, indicated that they had encountered homophobic or heterosexist
attitudes within their chapter, usually in the form of derogatory jokes or comments. Homophobia
was also frequently evidenced in membership selection. If a rushee was rumored or perceived to
be gay or lesbian, the chapter was likely to summarily vote against offering the rushee a bid to
join. Likewise if a pledge was discovered or believed to be gay or lesbian, the chapter was
inclined to dismiss the pledge. More often than not, the initiated lesbigay member(s) would voice
no opposition to the discrimination, fearing that to do so might cause other members to question
their motivation. One man even wrote, "A rushee was blackballed because of suspected
homosexuality. I was one of the three who blackballed him. Five years later I met this individual
again at a bar, and we have been lovers for eight years now (and going strong)!"



You can find the study at length at:

http://www.lambda10.org/research_study.htm

The Lambda 10 site is a website for individuals who are lesbian, gay, bisexual, and includes many resources, articles, and a list of names of individuals who are "out."

It is also interesting to note that there are also a number of fraternity and sorority advisors on college campuses that are gay, lesbian or bisexual....so the correlation of active participation as an undergraduate may continue even further and development of a stron alumni base for organizations.

My interpretation of it is that, like with many words that were originally offensive and are now being "reclaimed," it's okay to use if you're a member of that particular culture, but if you're outside of it I wouldn't try it. Most of the gay people I know don't mind saying it themselves or hearing their friends use the term "queer," but if somebody (heterosexual) that they don't very know that well says it, they tend to attribute it to some underlying homophobia.

Devil's advocate: Well, the rejoinder to that is that this just isn't a first amendment issue. The government isn't involved here, and nobody's suggesting that the epithet-yellers should go to jail. This is a private school, and the question is how they build the kind of community they want to have. It appears that they would like to have a community where, either, nobody WANTS to taunt gay people, or if that isn't possible, then at least to have a community where there is enormous social pressure not to do so, and anybody who did would be condemned by his brothers.

So, how do they get there? Knowing U of C fairly well, I'm pretty confident that if those guys had yelled a racist epithet like "kike" they would have become absolute pariahs on campus and might well have been kicked out of their houses. Not coincidentally, they didn't do that -- they attacked others in a way that's more socially acceptable.

Personally, I've kind of lost confidence in diversity training. You're not going to change people's thoughts overnight, but you can change people's behavior. And behavior is most effectively modified through reward and punishment. Using hate speech to attack fellow students should have swift consequences. These guys should be punished -- if not by the school, then socially. If sororities refused to mix with that frat till they kicked those guys out...I have a feeling this wouldn't be a problem next year.

Sheesh. You'd think that at least in Division III, schools could find football recruits who aren't Neanderthals. Oh well.

Ivy

What is more interesting, is that these people who are going around putting on these Seminars are more than likely being paid via a grant from the Federal Government or a very strong intrest Group who donates $$$$$$$$ for such things!

Now, My Question is?

Should I go to find out why I should like Brother Rod, Brother John, Brother Akmed, Brother Grey Feather, or Brother Wang because they are different in color, relegion or what the hell ever when I already do??

Do I as a tity whity decide to dislike them because I was told to like them because that was the Proper thing to do!

NO NO NO, I like them because I have come to know them and find out, Da, they are real people!

That is the main problem people! I get to know my customers and find that they become friends also!

I see this everyday on GC and folks we are a microcosim of life right here!

Let me count the people who I dislike on GC------------------------------------------------------------------Damn, none came to mind! Go F***** figure! Do we argue, yes, do we fight, yes, so just what in the hell does that tell you! Are we a big family Well, Da, YES!

Thank Goodnes for this Site! I have met so many Fantastic People on this site and have talked to 2 of them today!!!

Love to tell you who they were but it was a member of a Fraternity and a member of a Soroity!

Both Great People!:cool:

Get over self importance for tomarrow you may die! Boring to do that!;)

Left overs again tonight! But good left overs! Look back on previous sites!:)

Yes Ladies of G C I can COOK! It aint ALL out of a Pan!:cool: