That's not cool. What school are you at?

Carleton University in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada

Have you asked them why they don't recognize Greeks?

Cause we are elitist, sexist and cost alot of money. The school is pretty left wing.

Wow, that is a pretty left-wing wacko view of Greek life. I don't see how we are eliteist - there are a lot of "normal" people (myself included) that are Greek. I don't understand how we are sexist either - there are such things are sororities. And how do we cost a lot of money? The school doesn't pay for it - the members do! Sounds like you need to get some nice conservative people on the board up there.

We are elitist because we can choose our members, where the chess club has to take anybody who comes. We are sexist cause eventhough organizations exist for both genders each organization is gender specific. As for the Money, the school maximum for clubs and societys is like 10 bucks dues, we charge 300+. It has it's benifits though, everything that the greek community has done has been done because the individual organizations thought it was best. We have a presidents council which operates sorta like an IFC, except there is no judicial branch (we are all self policing). There are other interfraternal councils, such as social and philanthropy that organizes events. We report to nobody but IHQ.

My chapter had our charter suspended temporarily last summer because of an incident where the school suspended our recognition as a student organization. Our charter was not reinstated until we regained our recognition from the university.

Yeah, I guess not being responsible to the school would have it's advantages. I just think it would be cool to have another school in Canada with a Greek system.

Lots of the big schools here have greek systems, and some of them are quite large. Carleton just isn't one of them. I know Queens University in Kingston Ontario expells you if you wear letters on campus.

you also have to consider the fact that there are many levels of losing reccognition. Some schools don't recognize greek organizations because of the reasons in one of the above replies. And they keep their charter, but this is completely different than a chapter who loses recognition due to a student conduct violation.

Granted, I don't know much of Canadian Law, but I would assume you have the same supreme protection of speech and expression, right? Wouldn't that violate a person's freedoms?

yeah we have the same constitutional freedoms for freedom of speech as well as freedom of association. The thing is nobody has the money to take the school on in court. The Alma Mater society of the school made the decision in 1933 and it has never been challenged under the charter of rights and freedoms (which wasn't written till 1982) there are rumours that AEII is starting a chapter there soon.

You're completely missing what I'm saying.

Any school that takes state or federal monies is not allowed to expel a student for being a member or affiliating themselves with an off-campus organization. This was signed into law by President Clinton. http://www.dke.org/conf.html It doesn't matter if they signed some "honor code" or not. If a kid wants to wear an Amnesty Int'l T-shirt and meet with Amnesty Int'l off campus, he is allowed to - if he wants to wear a TKE t-shirt and meet with TKE off campus, he is allowed to. If Amnesty Int'l or TKE don't want this person as a member, it is THEIR choice.

You say "it's different if a national org simply pulled a charter." I hope this is expressly stated in your code - are you saying that the school still recognizes, say, ABC sorority if they got their charter pulled? Wouldn't that create a huge mess with the sorority's nationals?

You're missing my point. TKE is not simply an off-campus organization. Granted, if some typical organization (you used Amnisty International as your example - a non student organization that has never been a student life organization), no school should be allowed to dictate if someone wears that shirt. But TKE is a student life organization, and they were a student life organization at GVSU, and they were expelled. The student code (which, by the way, is reviewed by the Michigan State Board of Education - which is currently run by bleeding-heart liberals) states that no student my openly affiliate themselves ON CAMPUS with a student life organization that has been expelled. Who gives a rip what they do when they go shopping, or home to see mom and dad. But when they're ON CAMPUS, they are not allowed to openly affiliate themselves.

I don't understand why people just can't follow the rules. It's not as if these rules are a surprise. They've been in the code for years. Most schools have similar rules. They're not even TKEs anymore. They were kicked out of TKE by their nationals. If I were a TKE at another school, I would be pissed at the guys who were at GVSU because the reputation TKE has in this area now is not the greatest. TKE is eligible to reapply in 2005 I believe, but that can be extended if guys are caught wearing TKE letters on campus (that was stipulated in the expulsion).

I've looked at the entire situation, and I know what actually happened, something that I would say most of you do not. It really boils down to this: The TKEs at GVSU were not kicked off campus because they had one incident. It was a pattern of behavior which culminated in one incident that ended up with one man in the hospital fighting for his life, criminal charges, and a lawsuit against GVSU. TKE was on probation at the time, and had been on probation several times for several reasons in the previous few years. They were given a hearing to respond to the charges in front of the IFC, but the vote didn't go their way. One of the reasons the vote didn't go their way is because of how they acted in the hearing. Rather than walking in like gentlemen, presenting their case, and respectfully debating the issue, they decided that the best way was to all storm in, yell at the President of IFC and the Judicial Officer of IFC in the hearing. They decided to use foul language, and they decided to make in very easy for the council to recommend expulsion. Why did they act this way? If they had behaved themselves, they may have had TKE suspended. But they decided to act like asses and get their fraternity kicked off campus. They asked all the Greek Organizations to come to their aid, and several did - until they acted like that. Most of their fellow Greek supporters actually literally walked out of the hearing on them when they started to swear at the judicial committee. I don't have any sympathy for them. They made all of the Greeks on campus look bad and there is not one fraternity or sorority that feels bad for them or misses them.

If you ever have the misfortune of meeting any of the "TKE" guys now, you'll see what I mean. Rather than accepting what has happened and learning for the mistakes that were made, they have taken on the attitude of "us against the world." It's almost as if they're begging for another incident with GVSU. At this rate, I'd be surprised if TKE is ever allowed back to GVSU. From what we can gather, "TKE" numbers are dropping. They're having trouble recruiting because they're not a real chapter of TKE. They don't interact with the Greek organizations on campus. They don't have events. They don't have parties that anyone goes to (because we know you might end up in the hospital at their parties). So, the real problem for them is that they don't have anything to offer guys.

Being a law major, I also have the advantage of looking at this from an academic standpoint. This is not a free speech thing. This is a rule thing. If they want to make themselves feel important, fine. Wear a t-shirt under a sweatshirt with TKE letters so no one else can see them. The rules they must follow do not violate their rights. There is no protection of expression when it comes to this situation. A University is free to establish rules governing the regulation of student organizations. There is no doubt that TKE is a student organization. You can't pretend it's not. TKE was expelled. The rules say that students cannot associate themselves with expelled organizations as student of GVSU. If some guy wants to be a TKE on the weekend or weeknights when he's not in school, and not on campus, fine. That is something no one can really stop. It's not within the school's power to regulate his personal life, but it is in the school's power to regulate the educational environment it provides.

One theme I'm seeing that is quite disturbing in the idea some people have that Universities are "rule-free" zones, or that the rules and laws you follow at a University are exactly the same as everywhere else. That's simply not the case. As a resident of the State of Michigan, I can legally carry a firearm (with the proper permits). I can keep one in my bedroom if I wish. But as soon as I step onto a University, I am committing a felony. Doesn't matter what permits I have, I'm breaking the law. Now wait a minute! Doesn't that violate my Constitutional Right to Bear Arms? The student code says that any student caught with a firearm may be expelled. Isn't that a violation of that student's rights? You can't pick and choose the rules you wish to follow. College students today need to pull their heads out of the sand (or wherever else they have stuck them), and take some personal responsibility for their actions. Start being a responsible citizen. Antagonizing people by flaqgrently violating the rules is not going to get you through life with many people on your side.

Beat that with a stick.

what's a law major??