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Good insight. However I have been fortunate enough to join both "Difficult" AND "Paper" organizations. The difficult (My Frat, Airborne School, Ranger School). And the paper (there are plenty of them out there that you just pay your money to and get a certificate in the mail). I get much greater pride in the organizations that i joined that i had to sacrifice something for. Everyone is different. I chose not to take the easy route. Peace
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Charle, Military conditioning should not be confused with fraternity hazing - I was in the military as well, and I was hazed rather extensively both in boot camp and in certain ceremonies (shellback, bluenose, etc...). None of it was to the point where I truly feared for life or limb, I nevertheless was NOT impressed by the people who carried the activities out. They generally had little regard for others feelings, and took pleasure in the fact others suffered (in the ceremonies). In boot camp, well, what can I say? What happens, happens; and there are generally good reasons behind it. These reasons, however, have NO parallel to civilian, college life in my opinion.
While the military has a goal to keep you from getting killed, and making you part of the unit (indistinguishable from the other individuals) - I don't believe fraternities should do the same. I don't personally know of any "paper" GLO's other than honor or professional societies. I agree, membership has to be earned, but then again, so does respect. Hazing is a barrier to earning respect. I hope you understand, and think the next time you get to give wood - why are you doing it? How accountable are you as a brother prepared to be if, God forbid, something goes wrong? Peace... |
Most greek organizations are far from "here's my money - where's my membership certificate and friends". They demained much of their memebers both in terms of service to the organization and also to the community. I spent a majority of my time "non-greek" during college. My last two semester, I became "greek". None of my club i was invovled with could compare to the dedication that was freely given to my sisters and my sisterhood
Personally, my candidate period wasn't easy. We had much to accomplish and some sacrifices had to be made along the way. And by sacrfices, I mean time spent towards the sorority rather then studying or "playing". Our dedication was given because we believed in our goals and ideals not because we saw physical or mental abuse. We were helping to build a sisterhood on our campus. While some might rank who did what towards our founding as important - it doesn't negate the fact that we are all sisters! Each sister that has entered our sisterhood since has continued to contribute to the sisterhood. None of them experienced hazing, and none will. And as I find the occasion to visit the sisterhood and get to know the newer sisters, I take joy in knowing that they uphold the values of our sisterhood not because they endured hazing, but rather because they proved themselves by giving of themselves to the sisterhood - dedicating their time to promoting our values, to fostering friendships between sisters. I am always proud to call them sisters! Jennifer Jenn ------------------ Beta Chapter Alumna and Founder Alpha Sigma Kappa - Women in Technical Studies http://alpha-sigma-kappa.ou.edu/ http://www.alpha-sigma-kappa.org |
Hmm, interesting discussion. I know my founding fathers, god rest their souls, didn't go through any type of pledging whatsoever. Neither did the first class. They may have been hazed for the Freshman - Sophmore thing, but not in the fraternity. Also, no where in my ritual does it say that push up or sit ups is a neccesity to be a brother. I'm sure it's the same with everybody. Also in the case of the by-laws and constitution. Or even the charters. I'll admit, I got hazed and I hazed. That was about 7 years ago. Since then, my chapter has adopted a strict no hazing policy by eliminating pledging all together. Does it mean the new brothers are less of a brothers then us old schooler? No, in fact I could honestly say that they are more loyal to our fraternity. Hazing is not a method to build up loyalty. If you are weeding out the weak, then you should have joined the Marines. If you think they are not worthy, don't give 'em bids. After all, if they receive their bids, obviously they are worthy to stand by you as a brother.
By the way, check out http//:www.stophazing.org. It's a great organization that not only focus on GLOs hazing, but also athletic and the military. |
For hazing, if you won't take the ethics side, consider the economic side. Millions of dollars are being payed in settlement against the National Organizations, the Schools, and each individual members. THose millions of dollars could have been used for programs to make the chapter better. Such as computers for the house, seminars for seniors to get a job, etc. For the schools, the potential are great. And members, well, you won't get what you always wanted. It will probably forced you into bankruptcy.
Insurance premium are extremely high. In fact, we are put in the same category as Bars and other high risk groups. I don't know what the premiums currently are, but when I was active, we were paying around $60 per man. That is an extra $60 that I don't have. Plus national and local dues. It's a big bite in my finance. I don't regret it, but wish it could be lower. Due to higher premiums and settlement, the biggest threat to GLOs aren't administration, it's economic. The way we are going, pretty soon it'll be cheaper to own a BMW then to join a fraternity. And guess which one most people would choose. GLOs will be bankrupt unless this unethical and illegal practices are eliminated. I'm not talking bout little stuff like making 'em wear pins, I'm talking bout the high risk such as running through the campus with only boxers in sub-zero temperature. Basic philosophy: If you won't let your sons or father do 'em, don't tell somebody else to do it. ------------------ Try Not . . . Do |
I never feared life or limb when i pledged.
"Remember you facing just what other men have met" The military takes a certain level of "dedication" and has its methods of "testing". So does my Frat. Some choose to "walk the walk" , others dont. Thats cool with me. Every one has their limits ( including me). Case in point. Has anyone ever heard of the masonic (Scottish Rite, Prince Hall, Eastern Star) term "riding the goat"? (?beastiality?) . I am not a Mason but i have heard Masons refer to it. I definitely wouldnt want to go there. But interesting enough, all but two of our past presidents were Masons. Interesting. Was/Is "riding the goat" an ancient ritual. We all have limits dont we? What other "hazing" takes place in Masonic ceromonies? Every organization (Masonic, Military, Relgious, Fraternal) has its "ritual" requirements. "Eight men thoroughly immersed are a far greater asset than eighty with lukewarm enthusiasm |
Don't confuse Ritual requirements with some of the hazing that occurs - I doubt "getting the cut" is referred to in any way in your actual initiation ceremony (unless there is something in the book that expressly forbids paddling/hazing).
Pledging requirements are so often contradictory to what is in our actual Rituals. That is a big problem - to go through some of the "initiation" activities prior to the true Ritual can leave new members confused as to what is right, and what means more to members - the message is all to often not to take the Ritual seriously, for the pledging activities take much more time and effort to carry out. Ironically, you may notice that some of the pledging and/or pre-initiation activities (don't confuse the two) change on a rather frequent basis - but I'll bet good money that your initiation Ritual has changed very little, or not at all, since its original drafting, however long ago that may be. Our Rituals are timeless, and, I'll bet are very similar in the messages they contain about how to live life, every day, to become a true brother/sister, and better person. The goal is to strive to meet the ideals - not to confuse members with activities that contradict what they should truly be learning. You stated that you hated your time "in the cut" - yet you learned some valuable lessons as a result. My question is, even though lessons were learned, you hated it - can you develop some other form of "new member education" that would teach the same lessons, and remove the hatred? Would members get more out of the education with the fear and intimidation factor removed? I think you will find in organizations where hazing is prevalent, and extreme, that the initiated membership is less active in the chapter than other comparitively similar organizations that do not haze. The only good I seem to have gotten from your perspective on hazing is that it brought your line/class tigthly together. However, shouldn't membership in a fraternity create bonds among ALL members, not just your class. This creates chapters with eight separate "cliques". There are so many more other methods of bonding membership than some sort of "bonding stress test." It creates the wrong kind of bond if only the new members are expected to get together. Mikki was very right about marriage's stress tests - they are not either planned or intentional (I'm coming up on my 9 year anniversary) - but you learn as you grow with each other (as an overall team, not segmented) on how to get through the tough times. (By the way Mikki - loved the line about Grandma's iron skillet - my wife inherited a large wooden rolling pin....same philosophy applies, and I've never put her in the position to use it either http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif ) I'm still interested in your response to the last question I posted - if you, on the other side of the line now, are going to "give" wood - how will you justify it? (Tradition? Please give me something more creative ..), and most importantly, how accountable are you prepared to be as a BROTHER if, God forbid, something goes terribly wrong at an event you attend? ------------------ Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother. |
..........You stated that you hated your time "in the cut" - yet you learned some valuable lessons as a result. My question is, even though lessons were learned, you hated it - can you develop some other form of "new member education" that would teach the same lessons, and remove the hatred? Would members get more out of the education with the fear and intimidation factor removed?
i also "hated" doing physical training in the mornings when i was in the military. Just because i "hated" it mean that it should be taken out. I hated the 30 mile road marches. i hated the after duty hours "ceremonies" in the barracks. Maybe i used the term "hate" too loosly. I felt "fear and itimidation" before i jumped out of an airplane or rappelled out of a helicopter. Did going thru those things make me stronger? Maybe, maybe not. |
..............I think you will find in organizations where hazing is prevalent, and extreme, that the initiated membership is less active in the chapter than other comparitively similar organizations that do not haze. The only good I seem to have gotten from your perspective on hazing is that it brought your line/class tigthly together. However, shouldn't membership in a fraternity create bonds among ALL members, not just your class. This creates chapters with eight separate "cliques". There are so many more other methods of bonding membership than some sort of "bonding stress test." It creates the wrong kind of bond if only the new members are expected to get together.
.............Techniques differ from organization to organizaton. I would prefer to join a org. that has a more stringent selection process. If it candidate stage is too much for me to handle then i would not continue. If i can handle it, then i will bask in the glory that membership brings. "Eight men thoroughly immersed are a far greater asset than 80 with lukewarm enthusiasm" P.S. I have never given a pledge wood. |
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I also know a little bit about Lambda Chi Alpha. It doesn't bother me to be called "paper" by people who praise hazing. (Our definitions are very different from each other). But it does bother me that a member of another non-hazing GLO would use that term. Not only am I not "paper", but I also know that none of the new members that I had the privelage to bring in (as their Pledgetrainer {now "new member educator"}) are "paper". They worked their butts off to get those letters, and the pride that goes with them. They didn't (and do not) just pay their dues and get a certificate. If you don't consider yourself or your GLO "paper", then you cannot consider mine "paper", either. While I'm now an alumnae, you might want to visit my former chapter's site Phi Beta Fraternity / Phi Chapter for clarification. ------------------ SilverTurtle@greekchat.com Phi Beta Fraternity [This message has been edited by SilverTurtle (edited April 14, 2000).] |
Hey Mikki!
My GLO gets paddles, too. The week before initiation we have a "paddle party". It's so much fun.... the new members come to the chapter room where paddles, paint, glitter, glue, markers, etc. are available, and they get to decorate their own. (The idea behind this is that we are an arts fraternity, and it's a way for everyone to create some art within the fraternity). Sometimes actives will bring their paddles and touch them up. This is a tradition that's been going on for as long as anyone can remember. Everyone usually got signatures of members on them, too. The back of mine's covered with them! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif I don't know of any sororities or professional GLO's that "take wood", but most do have paddles. Interesting, isn't it? Some other examples:[list][*]One local sorority on campus the bigs made paddles for their little's and presented them to them on their initiation night[*]A-Phi-O had the littles make them for the bigs (only chapter i've ever heard of this).. so you had to take a little before you got your paddle. The pledgeclass also made a paddle for their new member educator I think.[*]Our Phi Mu Alpha chapter had the pledges make their paddles (or maybe their bigs made them for them?).. but they had them the night of induction (first night after recieving bids).. there's were kind of cool because they had to get signatures of their pledgeclass, the actives, and all of the professors that were alumni of PMA, and their advisors. It was cool because there were so many professors that were alum. FYI- Just so no one thinks I am sharing big secrets of other GLO's, these practices were (are) common knowledge among students and faculty. ------------------ SilverTurtle@greekchat.com Phi Beta Fraternity Phi chapter |
We have a chapter of Phi Mu Alpha at my alma mater. I can't even remember if they had paddles. . .but SAI(my music fraternity) has a lot to do with the Phi Mu Alpha's. We didn't do the paddle thing, but our bigs made books for us to keep stuff in. It was really cool.
I also wanted to comment on what you said. SAI, Professional Music Fraternity for Women, is one of the organizations I am an Alumni of. We were not "paper" either. We had to work hard for our letters. There was a lot more to it then just signing a piece of paper and getting my first t-shirt. I'm a bit disappointed in myself becuase I tend to answer more questions with the information I have gained due to my social sorority Delta Zeta, rather than incorporate what I've also learned from my Professional. I think it is because professionals are looked at with a little bit more regard and respect than socials. Because it can be misinterpreted that professional greek organizations have a purpose, where socials do not. . .of course that is a crock of sh*t, but sadly enough. . .that is how society views it. But I apologize for not incorporating what I've learned from my professional organization. I really should try to do that more. ------------------ Mikki Gates Delta Zeta Alum Kappa Mu Chapter Sigma Alpha Iota Alum Eta Tau Chapter "I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special." --Julia Roberts (Steel Magnolias) Visit me at: http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html and http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml |
Silver - regarding "paper" - I only used that term because I see too many references to it in this forum - I don't believe there are many "paper" GLO's other than one I belonged to in college (an honorary teaching organization) - I simply filled out an application, paid my fees, and watched the enrollment ceremony, and voila - I was a member.
I don't know why it is, but I see lot's of disparaging remarks about "paper" members, most notably by members of BGLO's - I'm not sure why, maybe it's just coincidence. It may have something to do with the underground pledging vs. normal MIP they are supposed to engage in - maybe it's a way of distinguishing themselves as being more "worthy" of membership. However, I've yet to hear a logically sound argument as to why "hard pledging" (or "non-paper") - in both instances I will make the assumption that a fairly moderate amount of hazing exists - makes a "better" member than a "non-hazing" organization. In fact, I believe just the opposite is true - hazing creates more divisions and problems than the unity and bonding that is professed by those who continue to haze. My experiences and the other posts I have seen here bear this out. Sorry if I offended you, but I was trying to draw out the distinctions - I hope this clarifies it somewhat. ------------------ Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother. |
LXA-
I understand where you were coming from on the aspect of "paper". But it's a negative term that I hate seeing used, especially when you're trying to defend anti-hazing. I'm a member of Order of Omega and that's paper. Literally, I signed, paid my dues, and that was that. Which is fine and appropriate for that kind of organization. I'm sure the professional organization you joined was similar... maybe some community service, too. But basically just something to recognize your achievements in that field + put on your resume. The GLO I'm an alumnae of, however, is different. True, it's "professional" (and a member of PFA). But it's also very service oriented. It's other ambitions are developing scholarship, leadership, and brother/sisterhood. Doesn't this sound like the ideals of most GLO's to you? Social, service, or professional? You're right when you say that BGLO (and some non-BLGO) members use the term "paper" to describe someone who didn't "earn" their letters (usually meaning going through pledging). So by calling members of service and professional GLO's "paper", you're saying that they didn't "earn" their letters. It's already been stated that those members who go through a new member ed or pledging period minus the hazing often have a lot more to prove and a lot more work than those who do experience pledging centered on hazing. If I remember correctly, you agreed with this basic statement. So by calling these Greeks "paper", you're saying they didn't earn their letters, when in fact, as you already know, they most likely did. I guess I'm just asking you to use discretion when using negative comments/phrases (or words that can be percieved that way) when discussing others' GLO's. I think you would be offended if I said "I heard LXA's paper... they don't even call their pledges 'pledge'..!" (And I don't consider you guys paper because of the associate member program.. I call that leadership and forward thinking and an example.) I hope that explains my view + why I was offended... and apology accepted http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif thank you! ------------------ SilverTurtle@greekchat.com Phi Beta Fraternity Phi chapter |
Silver, Thanks for the post. However, I will disagree with you about Order of Omega being only a paper organization. You have to earn the right to membership by proving leadership and grades to be considered for membership - I think of Omega as a reward earned by diligent striving. Sure, once you're invited to join, there's not a lot of effort involved, but, just getting to the invitation takes amazing effort.
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