But what happens...
 

What happens if he just says no? That to me, is the answer to the question.

If one has to be taught to value a clean house, and therefore your group's image, I would argue that you aren't selecting the right people. There are other, less demeaning, ways to teach New Members the importance of maintaining a great image. And why aren't the brothers expected to do the same? Is it not their responsibility to take care of the house as well. There is just no reason why this is a New Member responsibility versus a brother's responsibility.

Not to get personal but I HATE cleaning my house-- and I resent my husband when he does not help me-- AND I LOVE THE MAN. I cannot imagine that cleaning the house really gives most of these people a great feeling of "brotherhood".

Finally-- I am sure fraternity policies don't spefically list ALOT of things. "Gee-- it didn't say we could leave the pledges tied to this flag pole naked in the policies so that must mean its ok!" so I wouldn't be using that as a crutch to justify anything.

I think it is important to understand that every GLO has a different definition of hazing; same with the university policies chapters must abide by. (Of course some things are hazing to everybody.

Also, there are things forbidden "because of hazing" that may not actually be hazing. Consider:

-Making new members drinks until they puke, beating them with pointy sticks, making them run around campus in French maid outfits saying, "I love to clean for Mu Mu." I think most people would easily consider these hazing.
-Tests, cleaning duties, "always" wearing a pledge pin. These things can be conducted in perfectly dignified manners. If the tests are reasonable, the brothers intentionally don't make extra dirt, or the pledge pin can be taken off for showering, these are debatable. They are banned by many orgs because of the "slippery slope" argument - the tests get crazier every year and turn into line-ups, the brothers make you clean the icky toilet with a toothbrush, you have to get your nipple pierced and stick the pin in there in the shower ... the assumption is that if left to their own devices, collegians will eventually corrupt these activities.
-Making paddles or calling them "pledges." A paddle, if purely decorative, doesn't hurt anyone, and the term "pledge" by itself, while perhaps slangy, isn't necessarily derogatory. These two things are banned by many groups to help eliminate the perception of hazing, since people, especially non-Greeks, associate paddles with whacking and "pledging" (esp. in the NPHC world) with grueling processes.

Is all that fair? Maybe not. But hazing, just like excessive drinking and parties, has become enough of a liability to the continued existence of Greek life, that those in charge are willing to implement these changes if they think it will help us stick around. I guess my point is, Activity X may not hurt or demean the pledges - they might even enjoy it - but it could still be banned in the name of "stomping out hazing," because these rules are made with much more than just your chapter and your situation in mind.

I think it's funny that all the guys tend to not think that house cleaning is hazing, while all the women do.

Nevertheless, I stand with my gender in saying that house cleaning is not, and is hard to imagine as, hazing. First, having members and new members have weekly duties is commonplace among fraternities with or without live-in members. Anytime there is a party, homecoming, or any event at a fraternity house, someone has to clean up after the event.

In my chapter, it is understood that if you were at the party or event the night before, you will be at the house the day after at an agreed upon time to help clean up...regardless of your membership status. This wasn't mandatory, but just an understood thing within the chapter. I never felt pressured to do so, and actually had a good time cleaning and hanging out with brothers on a saturday morning. I could see if I was being told to scrub toilets or something that that was hazing, but this is a cooperative effort of the large part of the chapter. I guess then, that community service, rush, or even going to class because we have minimum grade point standards could be construed as hazing. I have a hard time considering any of these to be hazing...and I know that at least our host institution and our fraternity concurs.

Re: But what happens...
 

If he says no it's just one of many things that would factor into the brotherhood's decision on whether or not he'll be a full member. To say otherwise I think would be dishonest.

Actually the naked flag pole would be covered under SEVERAL parts of the hazing policy.

It's not near the stretch being made to say that house cleaning is bad.

KEPike, having everyone come down to clean the house after a party is not just having your new members clean the house. As Heather17 said, what happens if you don't want to clean and say no? He gets a knock against him, as you said it would factor into him becoming a full member. So, in actuality, if he doesn't want to do it, it's not really ok...because he gets that mark on his record...and hence, THAT'S why it's hazing. I hope that makes some sense.

I disagree.. I think you should be able to ask reasonable things of a candidate class and expect them to come through.

I'm saying that if you limit yourself to things where you can't actually ask someone to do something a normal person would consider reasonable.. then what is left to do?

From my understanding, anything that "pledges" or new members are forced to do that actives do not is considered hazing. Now if both new members and actives were responsible for cleaning the house then I would see nothing wrong with that. If you live in the house or make mess in the house then, you will have t clean it up. That's fair.
Forcing new members to clean while the active watch and then have to sign off on it is hazing. These new members may think that if they don't clean they won't be initiated, they may fear that that one of the actives may randomly say no you didn't do a good job and he'd lose a point. Or the member loses a point because he only spent an hour and a half cleaning the bathroom rather than 2 hours. If they fear that their actions while cleaning will affect their chances to initiate you are putting undue stress on them, and thus that is hazing. Asking EVERYONE to clean, or assigning duties to ALL members (active or not) then, no, that's not hazing. Just think about it...no one likes cleaning, it's not fun, and it's definitly not fun when certain people are singled out to clean while others sit back and monitor them.

from the sound of this thread, people wan't to just become new members or whatever they're called without having to do something first. it seems that with all of these threads, people just want to be handed a set of letters and be expected to have the rights within the organization that others have. that's the whole basis of earning your letters. that's why their called pledges, they're not brothers, they have to show and prove their loyalty. if the organization feels that cleaning a house is a show, then that's on them.

Well from the sound of it, I was horribly hazed as a pledge because I forced to study, forced to join campus organizations, forced to do community service hours, forced to attend functions of Beta Theta Pi, forced to clean my house, forced to get a 2.5 GPA, forced to learn the songs of Beta (many that are used in our Initiation ceremony...), forced to learn about history of my organization, forced to play or watch intramural sports, forced to attend pledge class meetings, forced to attend rituals.

However, I was never forced to drink, never paddled, never physically abused, never yelled at, never went on a meaningles scavenger hunt, made to wear clothes that violated good taste.

None of those things I did or our pledges do now creates a situation like the ones described by the FIPG.

The term Pledge is still used by the General Fraternity of Beta Theta Pi, and is the choice word when describing a potential new member.

Now that I find out I was hazed, perhaps I should explain our pledge program to demonstrate the impact of duties.

My pledge program was out of 1000 points and a minimum of 700 points were needed in order to initiate (all 24 of my pledge class reached these goals)
1st Semester GPA x100 = points for scholarship with a minimum expectation of 250 points needed to be earned
Fraternity Lore: 6 tests and 1 final. An 80% was needed to pass the tests and if passed 12 points were given. For the final you got your % of points out of 28. Minimum of 90 points had to be earned. Max of 100
Intramurals 10 points for each game you went to, 5 points for each game you went to and watched. Minimum of 40 points to be earned, max of 90.
Songs 25 songs to be learned with tests in lyrics and actual singing. 2 points awarded for each song. If failed but then later passed 1 point is given. Min of 42 points, and max of 50.
Outside Involvement: 40 points given for each outside organizations involved in. minimum of 80 points, max of 160.
Philanthropy 1 point for every verified hour of community service. Min of 18 , max of 50.
House Events 10 points given for attendance at chapter planned parties, serenades, BADD, __kai__events, other approved functions.

Obviously losing a point for not doing your duty, in the end doesn't make or break your opportunity to initiate unless you are having a lot of trouble in other areas.
The way the signing off aspect is done is that a pledge does their duty then asks the active to sign off, just to make sure that it has been done. Guys are honestly not pricks about making things spotless, that's the point of having them doing it everyday. If I think something hasn't been done properly, I just tell them to make sure that they get it tommorrow. Again it is a 15 minute thing.

As to comment on Heather's remarks that perhaps we aren't choosing the right guys for our house. One this is a ridiculous statement, b/c you don't choose new members on whether they are going to have pride in the house. Two, my chapter at the University of Nebraska was one of 4 chapters to win the John Riley Knox Award for Chapter Excellence this past summer. We also had the highest GPA on our campus and in all of Beta with a 3.51 this past Spring Semester. 100% of our membership for the past 4 years has been involved with at least one campus organization. We also won the excellence in recruiting award this past summer, as well as the Best Ongoing Service project award as well. I find it hard to believe that we are recruiting the wrong type of guys. If for some reason you may doubt my statment of these awards won click here and here and here. Further, I told my parents about it all the time when I was a pledge, and my parents know that our pledges do it now.

I'm honestly surprised that so many people think this is hazing, I honestly feel that I have to defend myself. I truthfully never once thought to ask until I saw the esteemed Mr. Earp's comment.

Perhaps if you all saw the way in which the duties were carried out you would see that the request is reasonable and not entirely difficult at all.

Betarulz -

Have there ever (to your knowledge) been any pledges who complained/refused to do the cleaning?

We're talking 25 18 year old guys - if they learn to clean bathrooms and do it for their wives 10 years later, well, 23-skiddoo. ;)

OT: I believe the word "pledge" is far less demeaning than some of the cutesy-poo alternatives I've heard, and all that I can think of with new member is "huh, huh, huh - you said member." I think when we go overboard with calling this or that hazing, it makes us look far guiltier than we are - sort of like the husband who buys his wife a dozen roses every time he cheats on her.

Betarulz! congrats on the awards. I like your pledge program too.

It is the use of the word "forced" that bothers me. One should not be forced to learn about the group they are joining-- they should want to. But, in my opinion, cleaning the house, when the brothers don't have to as well, is outside of learning about the group.

As far as "earning" letters, my sorority does not do that. I feel that we should select quality women who are examples of what our group stands for and they are interested in joining. The education period is a time for them to learn about the group-- not necessarily to prove anything or jump through hoops, worrying about whether we want them to join. They go through weeks of recruitment being courted to chose our group-- we give them a bid and invite them to join because we think they will be good for our sisterhood-- and then all of the sudden they aren't worthy to be treated with the same respect we treat initated members?? I guess I am alone here but that just doesn't make sense.

It's not to say that we just give our letters away-- but I think there is something different about "being forced"ninto earning them and wanting to wear them because they believe in what they stand for. And my group's values just don't include hazing.

I can't remember which one, but I know one of the national fraternities initiates new members right away and they then go through a "introduction" process to learn about the group.... so one earns the letters because who they are, not what they did.

if they're trying to pledge my organization, i'll be damned if they don't know anything. you're right, they don't have to do anything, and they also don't have to intake either. being in a fraternity isn't for everyone, i'm not going to make you learn the info, you can just up and walk OWt if you want to. just drop line. people we all want and like can't always make it. earning the privlidges that come with becoming a member aren't for everyone. they're for those who prove their dedication to the organization. if you don't know info on your organization, then how the hell are you going to know what your standing up for? and what are you going to do after they prove they're no good? take away their letters? shouldn't have "given" to them in the first place.

I can't really put it diplomatically but I smell a pile of BS here...

Let me give you a hypothetical...

You give a bid to a young lady.. she accepts.. Then she doesn't really show interest in showing up to NM meetings... she doesn't learn a damned thing about the sorority (because she could care less) and just generally doesn't care. Other than that though, she's a woman of decent character and doesn't otherwise have too many flaws... Just in dedication to your organization.

The events were there for her to show up at but she didn't show up.. she still wants to be initiated.

Seriously now.. does she get initiated?

The answer
 

No she doesn't-- I thought about it after I posted and I was not entirely clear. The women still have to participate in the education process. We have a program that involves attending 10 events in different subject areas to learn about everything from risk management to building self esteem, and then weekly meetings. If for some reason though this person cannot complete a planned event because of another commitment, she can then chose an appropriate activity that meets the subject matter to replace it. No points are earned or taken away.

My sorority's education process is not about proving your worth or that you're willing to bleed for sisterhood-- but one obviously has to show that they are committed to being a good member who genuinely wants to learn about the sorority. My point was no one is made to feel like they have to earn or prove anything. Initiation is not held over their heads as something that can be taken away if they don't do X, Y, or Z. If a New Member is completing the program, and thereby shows she will be a dedicated member and a woman of character, then she is eligible for initiation, just like any other group.