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-   Risk Management - Hazing & etc. (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/forumdisplay.php?f=30)
-   -   Another School, Another Mass Fraternity Suspension (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=246681)

sigmadiva 11-12-2019 12:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin (Post 2471402)
My chapter has never had a hazing problem--and that is an interesting discussion as we were chartered in 2002. We don't have a hazing problem because we haven't ever had members with a tradition of hazing. Looking at our larger, more traditional chapters, one can only speculate now, but when I was an active attending conventions, spending time with guys from other chapters, I'd say some definitely hazed.



This is pretty much the same for NIC (and former NIC groups) but YMMV as far as how responsive an HQ is.



How do you define a sorority function? I can see chapter advisers being present for initiation. But 6 of your members and their significant others and a few randos want to get together,and mayhem ensues, was that a chapter function?



Structurally, we are different than NPC and other conferences. The NIC does not govern. They do not legislate. They mostly represent our combined interests to outsiders by doing things like lobbying. What they cannot do is tell Sigma Nu we have to have fully alcohol free housing. It isn't their place.

IFC is a different group at each school at many schools, NPHC affiliated groups and MCGLOs are members of the IFC. SAE and Lambda Chi are not members of the NIC, but I'm sure most of their chapters still participate in their local IFC.

I, an alumnus, am not a member of any IFC. When I was chapter adviser, I did not answer to or have really any dealings with our IFC.

And I think we largely are taking care of business. I think you have a few schools with strong traditions of hazing and partying that are hard to change because those groups still have the same alums coming back to teach about how things were in the good 'ol days.

I think you'll see these trends are mostly occurring in chapters which have had these trends. Largely, newer chapters whose early alumni take care to isolate themselves from bad traditions are going to have a better trajectory.

Unfortunately, there's too much money in those mainline Division I school chapters to do what needs to be done in a lot of cases and let them sit dormant for 20 years or so.

I substituted hazing for alcohol abuse as an example of how the governing body of a GLO had to tackle an issue that was threatening the functioning of the entire international organization.

Again, SGR had a similar problem with older alums coming back to their undergrad chapters to teach them about pre-MIP pledging. To deal with the problem our IHQ revoked chapter charters and suspended / expelled members. Ultimately members started getting the message.

Our advisers are expected to be in attendance at any and all sanctioned chapter events - recruiting, initiation, parties, and fundraisers. If our undergrad members are going to have a function in the name of SGR an adviser must be there. Period.

You can give up 20 years and come back as a better chapter or you can give up the 100-150 years of existence.

Kevin 11-12-2019 01:02 AM
Alcohol abuse isn't a threat to the entire organization for us. It's something which sometimes becomes tragic, but in many of these cases, those who drink assume the risk of their drinking. It's a free choice. Free choices come with consequences.

And again, I gave the hypo of 6 of your members getting together with their significant others and some randos. Is that an SGR event? What an "event" consists of has been a real problem as some would define an event as a gathering of 2 or more members.

That's a little much to be placing on the shoulders of alumni volunteers.

sigmadiva 11-12-2019 02:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin (Post 2471406)
Alcohol abuse isn't a threat to the entire organization for us. It's something which sometimes becomes tragic, but in many of these cases, those who drink assume the risk of their drinking. It's a free choice. Free choices come with consequences.

And again, I gave the hypo of 6 of your members getting together with their significant others and some randos. Is that an SGR event? What an "event" consists of has been a real problem as some would define an event as a gathering of 2 or more members.

That's a little much to be placing on the shoulders of alumni volunteers.
Alcohol abuse is a threat to the entire organization if it is being done in the name of a fraternity event. John Q. Public will not split hairs over whether or not a fraternity is IFC, NIC, NPHC, MCGLO. John Q. Public hears one term, "Greek Life". GLOs are all the same to them. For John Q. Public to hear that a young man died as a result of alcohol abuse at a fraternity event is enough for the public to pass judgement on Greek Life, a very negative judgement.


And please, you are too knowledgeable to be so flippant. Young men have died. It was last year or so that a young man died at the TAMU Sigma Nu fraternity house because of a drug overdose. So please, don't be so flippant about this.

https://www.kbtx.com/content/news/AM...390813801.html


If it is 6 of our members just hanging out with some randos whatever happens is on them. If it is 6 of our members at a sanctioned chapter event with some randos, then that falls on the sorority.

The way my org is structured is the Graduate Chapter (Alumni chapter) advises an undergraduate chapter. If an Alumna wants to volunteer to work with an undergraduate chapter, she must do so by being in good financial standing with the sorority at the local, regional and international levels. She must be elected by the sponsoring Graduate chapter members to function as an undergraduate adviser. She must go through the most current training of policies and procedures to advise an undergraduate chapter. We have a very structured way of managing our undergraduate chapters.

Just because one of our members may want to volunteer, she just can't do that. She must go through the proper channels. So for us (and other NPHC member orgs) there is serious responsibility placed on undergraduate chapter advisers. Everyone knows the structure so everyone abides by the rules. If you don't you get kicked out of the org. Rogue members (be they undergrad or grad) are not worth the risk.

Sen's Revenge 11-12-2019 08:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sigmadiva (Post 2471407)


If it is 6 of our members just hanging out with some randos whatever happens is on them.
To be honest, the threshold is even higher for some NPHC orgs.

You could be disciplined even if it's not a sanctioned event, if a reasonable person would think it was a gathering of members.

sigmadiva 11-12-2019 09:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sen's Revenge (Post 2471408)
To be honest, the threshold is even higher for some NPHC orgs.

You could be disciplined even if it's not a sanctioned event, if a reasonable person would think it was a gathering of members.
True.

Kevin 11-12-2019 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sigmadiva (Post 2471407)
Alcohol abuse is a threat to the entire organization if it is being done in the name of a fraternity event. John Q. Public will not split hairs over whether or not a fraternity is IFC, NIC, NPHC, MCGLO. John Q. Public hears one term, "Greek Life". GLOs are all the same to them. For John Q. Public to hear that a young man died as a result of alcohol abuse at a fraternity event is enough for the public to pass judgement on Greek Life, a very negative judgement.
And yet we still recruit well. The facts of the individual event matter. The current incident is under investigation. If it's true that a member drank heavily and fell out of a bunk bed sustaining a serious brain injury, and that he was assisted by non-members who didn't bring his condition to anyone's attention, then this is a tragedy for sure, but the fraternity isn't to blame.

Quote:
And please, you are too knowledgeable to be so flippant. Young men have died. It was last year or so that a young man died at the TAMU Sigma Nu fraternity house because of a drug overdose. So please, don't be so flippant about this.

https://www.kbtx.com/content/news/AM...390813801.html
Well, that was not last year, it was in 2016, and that chapter is dormant as far as I can tell. Drugs are an individual choice, and can happen in any chapter regardless of alumni involvement. If you think your chapter is immune, it is only a matter of time until you find out how wrong you are.

Quote:
If it is 6 of our members just hanging out with some randos whatever happens is on them. If it is 6 of our members at a sanctioned chapter event with some randos, then that falls on the sorority.
I didn't say it was sanctioned. It's 6 members hanging out with their significant others and some randos. I mention this because that's the kind of event which despite the chapter adviser having no inkling this is happening, something happens, and suddenly the school calls it an event of the organization due to overbroad definitions of what an event is.

Quote:
Rogue members (be they undergrad or grad) are not worth the risk.
Agreed here. So what do you do with long-time alums who come back for whatever event and share with the actives all of the brutal stuff which used to happen and scorn the undergrads for being paper members? Just boot 'em and to hell with them?

sigmadiva 11-12-2019 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin (Post 2471412)
And yet we still recruit well. The facts of the individual event matter. The current incident is under investigation. If it's true that a member drank heavily and fell out of a bunk bed sustaining a serious brain injury, and that he was assisted by non-members who didn't bring his condition to anyone's attention, then this is a tragedy for sure, but the fraternity isn't to blame.



Well, that was not last year, it was in 2016, and that chapter is dormant as far as I can tell. Drugs are an individual choice, and can happen in any chapter regardless of alumni involvement. If you think your chapter is immune, it is only a matter of time until you find out how wrong you are.
Okay, Kevin. If you want to split hairs.....:rolleyes:

A GLO can have 8,745,194 outstanding chapters and it is always that one bad chapter that people remember.

Quote:
I didn't say it was sanctioned. It's 6 members hanging out with their significant others and some randos. I mention this because that's the kind of event which despite the chapter adviser having no inkling this is happening, something happens, and suddenly the school calls it an event of the organization due to overbroad definitions of what an event is.
Then you need to have better communication with your undergrads. We stress that when you wear chapter letters / paraphernalia you are representing the org - we stress Sigma Image. We make the effort to teach that to our members - grad and undergrad. It is a very small world in NPHC orgs - somebody somewhere will know you or know of you. It won't take long for your business to get out. It is something like 3 degrees of separation. There is still a feeling of shame when you embarrass a NPHC org.



Quote:
Agreed here. So what do you do with long-time alums who come back for whatever event and share with the actives all of the brutal stuff which used to happen and scorn the undergrads for being paper members? Just boot 'em and to hell with them?
Yes.

https://www.sgrho1922.org/SGRho/Memb...c-869d96cc832c

ASTalumna06 11-12-2019 11:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sigmadiva (Post 2471413)
Yikes. This is fantastic.

Kevin 11-12-2019 12:42 PM
I'm not sure what further action could be taken against a chapter which had multiple members convicted of drug offenses and voluntarily relinquished their charter. That's well past double secret probation. I'm not sure how any amount of alumni training is going to completely eliminate drugs.

And honestly, until you posted that, I didn't know our A&M chapter had any problems. One of their alums used to post here frequently. I hung out with their president at the '01 college of chapters. He was a good guy.

We have an internal database which would show member status, but it's not open to the public and we don't really take action against alumni. I'm not sure there's even a vehicle to do that 2 years post-graduation. I really like that public list.

Titchou 11-12-2019 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin (Post 2471412)
So what do you do with long-time alums who come back for whatever event and share with the actives all of the brutal stuff which used to happen and scorn the undergrads for being paper members? Just boot 'em and to hell with them?
While NPC groups seem to be a little more forgiving,I can assure you we expel alums as well as collegians.

navane 11-13-2019 12:01 AM
Dylan Hernandez's cause of death has been released - "According to the San Diego County Medical Examiner, the student died of 'blunt force injuries of head.' The death has been ruled an accident."

Article: https://www.10news.com/news/local-ne...ity-event-dies

Rod D 11-13-2019 05:44 PM
Falling out of bunk beds happens more than we think. Trying to link this to the Fraternity system is a stretch.

Sciencewoman 11-13-2019 08:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rod D (Post 2471432)
Falling out of bunk beds happens more than we think. Trying to link this to the Fraternity system is a stretch.
My sister rolled out of her bunk bed at camp when she was a kid...she was taken to the hospital and treated for a broken arm, and she also chipped off 1/3 of her front tooth. Fortunately, she had her arm around her pillow when she fell out, so her head was cushioned by the pillow when she hit the concrete floor.

Condolences to Dylan's family and friends; this is tragic.

*winter* 11-14-2019 08:00 AM
There was a whole article about falls: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine...nities/357580/

It's weird how often this happens on college campuses.

While the article is heavily biased against Greek organizations, there's some amazing RM information in it that is, pun intended, quite sobering. It's a good read for anyone wondering what the consequences are when dire things happen (parents, students, advisors).

Sciencewoman 11-14-2019 01:59 PM
That article is a must-read, IMHO.


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