I'd say that there definitely could be a place for you within a greek organization at whatever school you may be attending - armed with that knowledge, and your desire to go greek, there should be nothing holding you back from rushing.

I would say to try to keep your rush experience as normal as possible, and look carefully at the dynamics within each house. Some chapters are going to be more accepting, in a general sense, than others - try to get a feel for where you'd fit in the best, and also look for indications that may lead to you feeling uncomfortable at a later date with the men you intend to call brothers.

Let's face it - if they sit around and toss about slang terms for homosexuals with no regard for company present, then that is a place you may not find to fit you best as this may make you uncomfortable.

However, there are many chapters that are accepting (overall) of persons of all races, creeds, and sexual orientations - you'll just have to make sure that you take a deeper look at each house during (or before) rush.

I agree.. the only way to find out how people feel is to give it a try, go out, be yourself and rush. If they accept you as you are then they are the type of people you would want as a brother (or sister) anyway.

Just as chapters and the National of a fraternity or sorority may have different views on homosexuality - so might an entire sect of the christian community and an individual person. I was born, raised and to this day am catholic - but i wholeheartedly support and advocate love, if thats men and women, men and men, women and women... i'm all for it - i don't care what youre doing in your bedroom.

Like many others have stated in this thread, it really depends on the campus, or chapter, or people involved in the chapter. There are always going to be people that will accept it and there will always be people that won't.

I think it is outlandish to not accept a brother/sister because he/she has a different sexual preference than the other brothers/sisters in the chapter. Being a brother or sister is about being a friend, someone to be there for you and for you to be there for them. Nothing should dilute that feeling or that bond.

I guess this is just the way I feel because we had a brother that came "out of the cloest" not that long ago. Most of the brothers didn't have a problem with it but there were a few that did. BUT, that feeling from those few soon passed when they finally realized that this is the same guy they have been calling brother since they joined the organization.

To be honest, to discriminate against an individual because they sleep with the same sex is in a sense, the same thing as not allowing an individual into an organization for a number of reasons such as; race, religion, ethnicity, creed, etc. And to those that think otherwise, you need to have a serious moral examination with yourself. It isn't 1900, it's 2002, things have changed in a major way and we need to be more accepting and less discriminating.

Most all GLO's have a basis in judeo - chrisian heretage. I dont think any of us were founded on cheeseburgers and fries.


I am going to respect your opinion here and not really get into this. I respectfully disagree with many denominations opinions. I dont feel this is the place for that debate

How many of us really know what our founders vision was anymore (times changing, etc...) Most of them didnt want minoritys or non-chrisitnas. Hell, my org was white only until 1956. My founders prolly wanted it that way too. Doent make it right. Remember, they were only 18 year olds. They were human, obviously. Much like the US constitution, I believe their principals (my orgs) are timeless, yet elastic and are mallieable to changing times. Thats why all of us still exist some 100/150 years after we were founded, because the ideals are timelss, yet adapt to the times. Most likely none of us would have been bid 100 years ago if you snatched us up and placed us in 1902. Times change.

This I understand as well. I also believe that rush is one of the most important things we do as orgs. Our future depend on it and I wouldnt want to see anything that can hurt that, or a rep. My campus is about 4% greek. We had a brother come out about 2 years ago. It didnt seem to hurt our rush. When he came out we were a 21 man chapter. Now we are near 70. He has since gone alum, and we dont have anymore openly gay brothers, but I dont see it as being a big problem if it were. I can gurandaymtee you that we had to defend that brother to toher greeks, but that what you do as a brother. You stand up for your brothers. Hell, to me, thats the essence of brotherhood. We've all defended brothers before, for drinking, womanizing, whathave you. Why would be afraid to defend a brothert because he's gay, when we already all do it for the other brothers. Remember, life isnt about doing whats easy. Its about doing whats right.

You gotta take a proactive stand. It wasnt that bad. Yeah we were the first, but we're still here. Think about the first integrationists, they were spit on and threatened. Tjis is nothing more than taking a stand. And look how far things have come since then. Not perfect, but hella better. Its about character. I believe an individual has much more character if he stands up for those who cant stand up for themselves and is willing to challenge the status quo. As for becoming a "gay house," its not a problem (for us). We use the same recruitment standards for everyone and our affirmative action policy for our chapter says that as long as our ratios accurately reflect the university's ratios, were ok. But we've never had to implement the policy, because so many people want to be a part of what we have at our campus, we have a good group of diverse guys. I wouldnt trade it for anything. I have learned so much from each and every one of them.

I respect what you have to say and your opinions, I also thank GC for the opportunity to debate things like this in a non-personal, adult manner. After all, its what our country was founded on.

I would encourage you to at least consider the possibility and how you'd handle it, because its gonna happen in Sigma Chi at UNF. And I mean an active will come out. Someday. Since they havent invented a "gay filter" for rush, and you cant always tell by how someone looks, you just might have a closeted brother in your midsts. What if it was one of your best friends? Would you still wish he had never become a brother. The reason I mention this is because our brother who came out...was engaged at the time. Cant always tell.....

I have a somewhat difficult time understaning homosexulaity, even though there are gay people in our extended family. I guess that's because I've always loved woman.

However...

Hiding behind religion is begging the question.

It's true that some conservative religions feel that homosexulaity is wrong. Many of them also don't believe in drinking, dancing, gambling, playing cards, pre-marital sexual relations and other "sinful" behavior.

So, when is Sigma Chi (and other Greek organizations) going to give the rest of those up?

Or does your organization allow you to "cherry pick" which religious beliefs to embrace?

I haven't heard the old not playing cards or dancing thing in awhile...im baptist so thats why I smirked at that one. I personally believe that since becominga Sigma Chi 4 years ago that it has enhanced my religious beliefs and made me a better person in many ways. Even though i don't have anything against pre-marital sex, I am waiting till I am married to have sex. Mostly cause of religious reasons, but since im a health major there are other reasons as well. Never smoked, done drugs either. I don't get wasted every weekend like some brothers or other Fraternity people do either. I did for awhile when i was a NIB, but that got old after a year. Im definatly not a super greek, but I try to represent well as a Sigma Chi and that people who aren't greek can see that hey you can be a high minded man and a gentlemen just as well as someone who isn't greek. But yes I do make mistakes like everyone else does, but you can change your ways in order to represent your organization and yourself better. Yes I feel homosexuality is a sin and that every sin is a sin no matter what it is, but unlike changing your ways on drinking, smoking, drugs etc, you can't just say Hey, i think im going to stop being gay from today on cause you can't. And by living that kind of lifestyle goes against a lot of what Sigma Chi stands for. And yes a lot of GLO's are Judeo-Christian based, but how many portray that in their crests badges pledge pins etc??? Not many...i see daggers, skulls etc...not saying that there is anything wrong with those symbols, but a white cross says a lot when someone sees it, or as in our norman shield...the Cross of whom our badge reminds us(Christ). And I really don't see someone who is openly gay and flaunting their homosexuality with a white cross on their chest. You can repent and apologize for doing something detremental, but like I said you can't say, "Hey im sorry for being gay, I won't do it again." If you wanna be gay then hey man its your life and you can do it wheter I agree with it or not, but not as a Sigma Chi. I respect others who disagree, but A. your not a Sigma Chi, and B. I hope you respect mine in return.

OK this is the part where I got confused...

I can understand if you were of the mindset that homosexuals can change their orientation, having the views you have.

But if you believe that you can't stop being gay, how can you penalize a person for that? Are you basically saying that you can't stop being gay any more than you can stop being Asian/having blue eyes/being 6 foot 5? I think you know where I'm going with this.

I think its very hard to become straight if possible. I don't however think its something your born with. I don't agree that someones sexual orientation is equal to that of someones race. I guess the way for me to describe it is its something that is self-learned at some point in your life...early in life i believe. I don't beleive it has something to do with genetics. Dont know if that makes sense to you but its the best way i can describe it right now.

First, there are still conservative denominations who don't believe in dancing, drinking, etc.

Second, the argument(s) that being gay is a sin, but that there is nothing a gay person can do to change, fly in each other's face, as as well as in the notion of an all knowing, all loving God.

Are you saying that God is allowing gay people to be born and pre-destined to eternal damnation and there is absolutely nothing they can do about it?

I simply can't believe that.

Oh ya i know there are some who don't believe in playing cards...go to any southern baptist church in alabama! :-)
No i don't believe they are pre-destined to eternal damnation, sorry if thats the way you read it. Its hard to explain stuff on a message board, but I feel its something self-taught, and I have known one person in high school who was gay and went straight, but it was something he struggled with for a long time before he decided to change his ways. I just think its extremley hard to change cause you've indoctrinated yourself with this idea.
And a lot of people dont think its wrong, and times are changing in society where people feel its fine to be gay. I don't oppress my beliefs on people cause its not me and you can do whatever you want with your life as long as it doesn't affect me or others in a negative way. Sorry we got off on a religious tangent here.

Predestination arguments aside....
(that's a huge can of worms you really don't want to open :eek: )

Being openly gay in a greek organization is possible.

It depends on the chapter though.

You must realize there IS plenty of homophobia in the world be it based on their religious practices or just simple disdain for the behavior.

This in mind there are chapters out there (more than you'd think) that are open to extending bids to homosexuals. They will weigh that in with all of your other good/bad personal traits. Hopefully they won't look solely at this issue when considering extending a bid.

My personal belief on it is that I see no problems with it at all. Some of my brothers might take issue though, I really don't know.

You'd have to find a chapter where you feel safe, are accepted for who you are, a place where you don't have to change to fit in.

This WILL be an issue when going through recruitment and you MUST be up front about this fact. Unfortunately, tolerance is something that comes with time. Twenty years from now it hopefully will no longer be an issue.

LHT
Kevin

Thats so my favorite part about this whole gay/straight debate. All the straight kids who are experts on being gay. lol. Seriously. Freakign walk a mile in their shoes. Then be an expert. For reals.

Who says that all gays live their lifestyle that way? What if a gay sigma chi believed the same as you and didnt want to have sex before they were really in love. Dont necessarly assume because someone is gay they live a described "lifestyle."

Quote:

And yes a lot of GLO's are Judeo-Christian based, but how many portray that in their crests badges pledge pins etc??? Not many...i see daggers, skulls etc...not saying that there is anything wrong with those symbols, but a white cross says a lot when someone sees it, or as in our norman shield...the Cross of whom our badge reminds us(Christ).

Actually, quite a lot. Do a bit of research on heraldry, and you will see that something as simple as a conifer tree symbolises the death and rebirth of christ. Just 'cause it isnt a celtic cross doent mean its not christian.

Quote:

And I really don't see someone who is openly gay and flaunting their homosexuality with a white cross on their chest.

Again, you are steryotyping. Why do you assume that all gays are like something you'd see at a gay pride parade. My gay brother grew up on a ranch, rodeo'd all through HS, and his first year of college. Was a football player in high school. Chicks are always all over him, and as masculine as any of the other brothers - more so. Big ass mother f*cker too. Could kick anybodys ass who would start shit. You'd never be able to tell. I just dont get that you can assume things......

Quote:

I respect others who disagree, but A. your not a Sigma Chi, and B. I hope you respect mine in return.

I do respect your belief system. I am just trying to understand it. Thats why I keep asking questions. My dad was a national officer for Sigma Chi in the late 60's. I just cant believe that EX teaches that. My dad wounldnt have stood for it.

My chapter, in the past, has had VERY religious members(a number of them have gone on to go to semiary school, one, my pledge father, is now a priest. Despite his VERY christian beliefs....he did not comdemn, or otherwise hold sexual orintation against anyone. I talked about it with him one day. And, in very religious terms that I cannot restate, he stated how tolerance and forgiveness is also part of the christian faith. it is not our place to judge but gods, and therefore, he will not hold such things against people, nor tell them what they can or cannot do, until it affects others. Having a gay/bi brother, does not adversly affect anyone in the house, unless they make it their place to be offended. Therefore, it is not his, or in this case, anyone else's place to judge them for that. It should not be a part of the decision of that person's joining the house. If this person shows the nessassary things to join the house, sexuality aside, there should be no reason to keep him out.

My beliefs on God are different than many mainstream religions, but this is one of theplaces where I do agree with them.


LHT,
M.
Sigma Nu
Knox College

i honestly do not think it matters whether a person in my sorority is a lesbian or not. a person is a person, regardless of their sexual orientation. if a girl shows that her beliefs are very similar to ours then she belongs with us.