I should have noted that it was an exception. As for norm, the majoirty of college campuses are run by nationals, agreed? Who do we hear more about in the news losing charters and being kicked off of campus due to hazing violations and or alcohol related incidents? To me, that is a norm. yet that may not be a norm to everyone :)


It's just hard for myself to justify that all nationals will always be better, or that a national will always be better considering we hear so much negativity about nationals and chapters going under for violations of this and violations of that.

***edited***
I'm not saying that we don't hear about locals getting kicked off campus for hazing or whatnot either, because we do, but in all honesty, it is more of an equal situation in the fact that we hear just as much about both being in trouble. So, I just it's just hard for me to justify a national to completely improve the situation on a campus like the one that carnation works on. Locals and nationals both have flaws and faults, and to think that one would be better than another can not be guaranteed.

Damasa,

One reason I don't see that the new local will be any better is because 2 of them were outside my window in drag awhile back with giant letters on their backs. Another is that one member is in one of my classes and he talks a a lot about what they do. They, like the rest, seem to think that hazing builds bonds.

If you aren't here with the situation, I don't think you can criticize what I'm saying about it. The nationals who have already expressed interest in the school have been apprised of the situation.

I've lived here in town for over 20 years and I know that the hazing is much worse than it was 10 years ago; it's like they're on a roll and can't stop themselves. As I mentioned, 2 of the fraternities and 1 sorority have died in the past few years--these groups were very strong a few years ago. You have to be kind of masochistic to put up with the kind of crap the so-called Greeks here have dealt out recently.

Another thing is that national sororities in the South tend not to haze. (And I hope they don't elsewhere but I haven't lived there to know!) Yes, I know someone will step in here and describe some case but around here, it's really considered ill-bred. I've been involved with the Southern Greek scene for many years and do not personally know a woman who has been hazed.

You don't hear often about a local getting caught because there is only that ONE chapter of the organization. Of course you'll hear about nationals, because they have 200 chapters.

The point of this post was to get your take on hazing's effect on recruitment, but unfortunately that's now lost.

I think if some chapters haze but most don't, and the hazing isn't extreme (I mean, line ups are bad, but people aren't dying at least), it probably doesn't affect rush too much. Freshmen don't know which chapters haze, and even if you as a prospective ask them, Chapter X won't say, "Oh, yes, we haze all the time." On my campus, one sorority hazed (they have since stopped), but I don't think the rushees generally knew about it. (And, funny, they were the one local chapter.)

But if "everybody" hazes, and even if 75% of the chapters haze that's perceived as everybody, that will dramatically affect rush. There are some people who come into college dying to be Greek and will rush no matter what, but I think a lot more people are iffy about it and are swayed by what they find once they get to campus. Those are the people you will lose.

Hazing is definitely the problem. Most people aren't masochists.

During rush...egads, sorry, *recruitment* :) last fall, there were LOTS of potential new members who asked if any sororities on campus hazed. They seemed very wary of being sucked into a group that would put them through hell, and rightly so. I would have dropped my sorority so fast heads would spin if any hazing had gone on while I was a new member (or at any time), and I'm proud to say that my group isn't the only one on campus who doesn't haze. None of us do. And believe me, if they did, we'd hear about it some way. It is so wrong for PNMs who really want to be good Greeks to have to put up with junk like the hazing that's evidently going on, and someone needs to tell them that is NOT the norm. I'm not naive enough to think that just because it doesn't happen on my campus it doesn't happen anywhere, so I totally believe what you all are saying about your situations. I just hope that something can be done before something reeeeally bad happens...and I think bringing in Nationals would be a good idea. No offence to locals--I'm not saying they should be totally abolished everywhere, but come on...this is ridiculous.

1. If non hazing is the way to go then why was the group down to 16 members in the first place?

Did you bother reading the post before yours? Most of the groups have a hazing problem so students assume that ALL groups have a hazing problem, and don't go Greek at all. This isn't a big campus - it's easier than you think to get down to 16 members.

2.. Did you ever consider the problem is oversaturation instead of hazing? Here are all these nationals trying to run the locals out of town and the number of glows doubles. As a result the number of members per drops in half. [/QUOTE]

The nationals are not "trying to run the locals out of town." A lot of schools expanded during the late 80's - early 90's and now that Greek life is less popular there may be more groups than the CURRENT population can support. But obviously no one (or almost no one) - national or local - wants to give up their group or merge. A local can stay at 6 members for 10 years if they want, if the school doesn't care. Nationals are expected to keep their numbers high (which I think has very little to do with sisterhood, but that is another thread).

damasa - you know I am in totally in favor of locals, but the prob at carnation's school is that many of the members drop out very soon after becoming active. They don't have any guidance, from older members or alumnae. They need someone to show them a constructive way of, hell, just keeping members, since the admin seems unwilling to do anything about it. They don't want to take responsibility so national groups would help that angle. Yes, maybe nationals will come in and everyone will still haze the crap out of each other and drop out, but you'll never know till you try. And right now they have nothing left to lose, basically.

I don't have a problem with locals. The problem is a lack of accountability for hazing particularly when a college or university abdicates its responsibility. When allegations of hazing are made against an NPC sorority, (inter)national headquarters will get involved. Some colleges can't or won't necessarily do the same for a local org. Of course, not all locals haze and some (inter)nationals do.

Back to the original question. I agree that a reputation for hazing can negatively impact all of the sororities and contribute to the diminishing quantity and quality of those going through recruitment. The campus is partially responsible. If they want to change this, the campus needs to set up very specific guidelines outlining hazing and the potential consequences of such actions up to and including closing the organization. On the other hand, there need to be a 'peer pressure' of sorts where the non hazing greeks address the problem and strongly persuade the hazers to stop. If the non hazers know that a group hazes, they need to stop silently accepting this and address it as a threat to the future of the entire greek community on that campus including their own org. For example, let them (hazers) know that it is unacceptable and that they won't be invited to socialize or participate in any activities until the hazing stops. I hope that helps. Good luck!

more local bashing?

Shadow. Could you support you opinion with some data?

The majority of the alcohol/hazing incidents that I read about involve NATIONALS.

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what is COB?

Continuous Open Bidding - if a sorority is not at campus total, it can give out bids to girls at any point (with some exceptions - not to a freshman before formal rush, and frequently not during the summer).

shultzz--

I ask you to read an ENTIRE thread before replying. I answered this statement many posts ago.

Homey--

Nobody's trying to run anyone out of town. The campus had said back in 1994 that all greeks would be national by 2000. Today, in 2002, not one local has gone national. Does that sounds like running someone out of town? I don't think so.

I don't have anything against locals! Everyone thinks this is about bashing locals. We have equal number of locals and nationals, and I make no designation about those that haze and those that don't, with the exception of ONE group! Which would mean that 8 other sororities are hazing.

Thank you for those who posted something on the actual topic. 33girl, I don't buy into that thing that people don't want to go greek anymore. Yeah, interest may be smaller, but I think this group proved, at least on this campus, that there are plenty of people who would go greek if it was a quality experience.

Imus,

Fraternities pretty much give out bids whenever they like. For example, my brother started hanging out with the KA chapter at his school during the summer before his freshman year. He accepted a bid from them before Formal Rush even started in the Fall.

NPC sororities have much stricter rules regarding rush than fraternities do. Not only are sororities not allowed to offer bids to incoming freshmen before rush starts, but they are also not allowed to have contact with the potential rushees during the summer.

Hope this answers your question! :)

Homey--

Let me explain something to you. 50 women went through the formal recruitment process. That's 50 women for 9 sororities. Pretty shabby numbers...the reason the numbers are so low? Because the Greek Life system isn't offering what college students are looking for...a positive Greek experience. The group who doesn't haze got lumped into the system of hazing.

Through a bit of remarketing and word of mouth about the positive NM program, the group found all of these women. In 2 weeks, 20 more women wanted to be part of greek life, because they knew that they wouldn't be hazed. All of them were asked why they didn't go through formal recruitment, and their answers were all the same.."because I don't want to be hazed".

Hope this explains to you a bit of the situation.