There's also the potential issue of incoming students who might look at some of what has gone on and say "why would I want to part of that?"

They have been, but I think it's dangerous for any fraternity to assume that campus administrations will continue to feel that way.

I think it's more than just doing better. I think fraternities have to work off the assumption that we bear the burden of proving to administrations, parents and students that we are an asset to campus life and to student life.

I think this an overgeneralized assumption. Yes, some alumni contributions might stop. On some campuses it might be lots, but not on all. I know plenty of public campuses where Greek life is relatively small, and I have no problem imagining some administrations deciding that the cons to the school outweigh the pros.

Two things:

First, it's not "two chapters." It's at least two chapters in the last two weeks. While we all know that these chapters don't represent all of the fraternity system, we also know these chapters in these lady few weeks are just the latest in a too-long line. But the non-Greek public just sees yet more racist, mysogenist, crude, entitled frat boys. That public perception is what fraternities are up against, and part of the reason is the recurring behavior of too many of our members. The perception that I have heard from a number of people, some of who are not Greek but some of whom are, is that these "isolated" incidents are symptomatic of a widespread, systemic problem in fraternities. That's what we're dealing with.

And second, I, at least, am not predicting mass dismantling of the fraternity system. I'm predicting the possibility of death by a thousand cuts as some campuses decide they can live without Greek life, as some parents do not want their sons participating in Greek life, as some students who might otherwise be attracted to Greek life decide they don't want to be associated with it, and as some alumni decide they no longer want to support it because of what they perceive it as having become.

Kevin, you just have to stop saying this. Please. It is NOT just 2 fraternity chapters that are crossing very serious lines.

And the offenses just keep getting worse and more nightmarish. "She doesn't need a pulse if she is hot enough" and "That tree is so perfect for lynching" are sick and really scary for some people. It borders on psychotic. What the hell is wrong with these young men?

RAPE IS NOT SOMETHING TO JOKE OR LAUGH ABOUT. EVER. I know you agree with that.

I have to admit that I don't understand the one about whales & dolphins....

Translation: Be nice to the ugly/fat girls; they may lead you to the hot ones.

You have to take all things in context. If they were plotting to lynch someone, that borders on psychotic. If they were trying to be funny by writing things which would shock the conscience, like dead baby jokes (VERY NSFW),

http://www.skrause.org/humor/deadbaby.shtml

Then i'm not going to say they were psychotic... but maybe they were indecent and need to learn that their "humor" can actually cause severe mental anguish for some people. This sort of speech is pervasive within our culture. A lot of it comes from places like 4chan (again, super NSFW) or other websites these kids have been visiting long before they entered the fraternity system.

Of course. That said, I'm not going to call for the end of the institution of the American college fraternity because some of their members might make inappropriate jokes. That seems absurd.

And I appreciate what you're saying Mysticat, but to even acknowledge that these people calling for the end of the fraternal system as having some means to accomplish that just encourages them. As long as our national organizations as in this case continue to be good stewards of their reputation, I'm pretty sure we'll be just fine.

I completely agree. For fraternities to take the position of apologists and minimizers only feeds right into the stereotypes. The reality is that fraternities are now on the ropes. And need to do some SERIOUS self-examination and take effective corrective measures rather than indulge in defensive maneuvers.

Decent people -including current college students and alumni- are horrified by these revelations. And wonder what more is going on behind the closed doors of a fraternity. Who would want to be a part of this?!!!

Nothing could be further from the truth. The fraternal system as a whole is healthy and doing as well as it ever has. The Atlantic has done a pretty decent job of covering these situations and where schools have attempted to shut down fraternities, it hasn't always gone well. Public schools just won't do it. It may be fun to talk about, but it's just not in the cards.

Decent people need to stop shitting their pants every time a 19-20 year old does something stupid. Kids did stupid stuff when you were in school. You probably did stupid stuff when you were in school. They will continue to do dumb things. Some things, e.g., offensive jokes, should be forgivable and seen as opportunities to educate and improve lives. Other things, e.g., gang rape, are unforgivable and we should do the utmost to cooperate with Title IX investigators and law enforcement and not attempt to cover up illicit activities. And the thing is--our national offices and officers are pretty darn good at these things. Most schools are as well.

People should really stop saying that we can't handle any more of this or that and that "it must stop" or we're facing some sort of existential crisis. We're not. We are fine. Kids will continue to do stupid things and we'll be fine. Might we close down a chapter for 4 years and recolonize? Yep. As long as net, we're adding more chapters than we're losing, we're winning the war.

At least anecdotally, I have really enjoyed working with my national organization and my school's Greek Life professionals (I know they lurk here) and see them actively working to expand the Greek community (rather than as you suggest to do it harm) and to provide great options for student life on the campus.

I'm truly glad you've had that experience, but I would not assume that is a universal experience.

And again, I'm not talking about a vast plot from the outside to bring the fraternity system down. I'm talking about the risk of the fraternity system bringing itself down, or at least injuring itself substantially.

I completely agree. Repeatedly shooting yourself in the foot will eventually result in permanent harm.

Keep digging that hole and fall right in.

And Kevin, I decline your characterization of me as wanting to harm fraternities. Not in the least. I want them to do some serious soul searching to see what they have become and where they are heading.

And no, I never saw anything like what I am seeing now back in the day. Never.

MWhen it comes to these comments online it's not just fraternity guys. Look at what's happened in recent weeks with Curt Schilling and his daughter and then Ashley Judd and her tweet about the UK game. It's like some game where these guys are just trying to say the most shocking thing. It's disgusting and I don't know what's prompted it because these comments are not exclusive to Greek life. People just have no filter and no worry about consequences.

ETA: I don't mean this as an excuse for these comments, at all. I'm just wondering how we got here.

Well, my mother was Greek back in the day... hazed quite a bit at Oklahoma State University. My father was Greek, hazed at OU... they didn't have to hide the racism because it was so institutionalized as part of their world. Blacks were not allowed to join their organizations because of national rules against it.

And the sort of crap my father did when pledging his house? That would never happen today. Totally insane stuff including kidnapping their pledge trainer, flying him in a personal aircraft to a remote location in the NW part of the state, taking all of his clothes but his underwear and handcuffing him to an oil pumpjack... or the potential arson (he's not sure of this) of another fraternity house.

Have some historical perspective about what our organizations used to be and what we have become today. Our chapters include men of all races, religions and sexual identifications, and yes, some alumni and some chapters have a problem with that... but we're making progress little by little.

You have to have a little perspective. If death by thousands of papercuts was going to happen, it'd have happened already. We're stronger than ever in terms of values and membership and money. I hope y'alls' national organizations responded to these incidents the same way mine did--with memos reminding chapters to implement programming which we already have in place.

But these reactionary threads are crazy. Yeah, condemn the bad behavior, but don't shit your pants every time an 18-20 year old kid does or says something stupid or you're gonna run out of drawers.

A lot of this isn't just stupid, Kevin, and I think you know that.

With all due respect, Kevin, you need some perspective, too. Like you said, the world has changed. The racism that once was out in the open because it was institutionalized isn't going to be tolerated as easily by the wider society now. Neither will the "boys will be boys" excuse —which is exactly what it is. (It's an odd excuse, too, for organizations that claim to be "values-based" organizations and that want their members to be thought of as "fraternity men.")

I would hope my national org would respond with a lot more than that. Memos? That's window dressing that does little to actually address problems.

Are you trying to be obtuse? Memos reminding us about programs we already have in place. Not just memos. Programs already in place.

And the "boys will be boys" concept is no less true than 50 years ago. If you think you have the answer to cure 18-20 year old kids of ever saying stupid things, we'd love to hear it.

All of this! Memos about fraternity programming clearly aren't working. And let's not all point fingers and say, "My organization is already above the curve and doing all it needs to do. It's working for us." None of us here can say that with 100% certainty, unless you know the inner workings of every single one of your chapters.

Making racist comments isn't ok. Taking pictures of naked women without their consent and posting them online isn't ok. When are we going to stop shrugging our shoulders and saying, "Eh, they're 18.. that's what college guys do?" When are we going to hold our members to a higher standard... ya know, the ones that are in our rituals and creeds, that we advertise as being the reason to join our organizations?

This. I'd also love to hear it.