LiL_G wrote "I like the part about the brothers destroying stereos and computers that belong to the pledges, I'd like to see that N2 guy talk shit about how that increases brotherhood."

I have never posted anything even close to condoning that type of behavior. I am very sorry to learn that a chapter of any Fraternity has lost their charter. This situation has many lesions to be learned. I am going to ask our Alumni Risk manager to use this as a case study with my Chapter. I would bet that my assessment of blame would differ greatly with many that post on this board.

I can’t get into too much detail, but if this had happened in my Chapter there would have been many interventions. A Brother or pledge involved in any negative situation that becomes public, either in print or television, automatically goes before the Alumni Board. Just as the actives hold the key to a pledges future as a Brother, our Alumni Brothers hold the keys to what we view as the ultimate goal of Brotherhood, the “Alumni Brother”(we call it something different, but that’s basically what it is). You see, in my Fraternity, the active Brother is not the ultimate goal.

It is obvious to those who read these boards that I am an avid supporter of hazing. I’m not sure that the full message is getting through. I do not condone physical contact with pledges. I do not condone destruction of property. I do not condone behavior unbecoming of a Brother. I know that hazing is both against the law and what my Nationals state. We accept this disparity and operate our intake system as our Chapter forefathers had intended. It has worked so very well for us for decades and will continue to do so. We also accept the risk associated with this program because it is overwhelmingly outweighed by the rewards we reap. If we changed to the mainstream, the dedication and beliefs that our Brotherhood is founded on would cease to exist. I first posted on this board to point out that there are still chapters that do not bend over for the politically correct. Just as in life, everything must be weighed. Risk vs. Reward.

Back to the top. Who’s at fault here? I say it’s the Alumni. If this had happened in my Chapter, the blame would have fallen on our shoulders, the Alumni Board. I am not saying that my Chapter does not have issues, we do, almost every semester. But we have the lines of authority to deal with these issues quickly and harshly, if needed. In my Chapter, Brotherhood has to be in your soul, but the Chapter is the keeper. It’s a synergy, “The total is greater than the sum of its parts”. In other words, “No one Brother is more important than the Chapter.”

While it is sad that a national must close a fraternity, this chapter so obviously disregards any standards of their fraternity that I don't think they deserve a charter. Education programs work for those who are willing to listen and use them. It sounds like Sigma Nu gave these guys a bunch of chances when bad things happened, and they just continued down their own path. I hope Sigma Nu can come back to the campus and thrive soon.

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Delta Phi Epsilon, Celebrating 84 years of Dedication, Pride and Excellence!

N2,

You gave references to strong alumni involvemnt for the preservation of values in your fraternity. Since I was going to reply to your post in risk management, I'm just going to add it in my post here. You mention how your fraternity maintains strick guidelines preventing this type of thing from happening. Good for you, but 90% of the chapters out there can't achieve this. Hazing is a vicious circle that perpetuates itself and becomes progressively worst.

Anyways, enough about that. I think everyone here is being way too sympathetic toward this chapter of Sigma Nu. I personally don't care or want to know what a fraternity does behind closed doors, but what they do in public I have absolutely no tolerance for. Anyone that causes negative publicity should suffer the consequences. The media loves this type of bullshit, it hurts us a lot more than you know. Trust me, i'm on a campus with 1% greeks, these types of actions stay around for a long time and are very hard to dissolve.
Yeah there are other chapters that get any with a lot worse than this, but these guys were on downward spiral. The few bad apples would most likely be the newer members, which in turn would attract more like them.



[This message has been edited by Lil_G (edited March 26, 2001).]

And your total national fraternity is greater than the sum of its parts (chapters). In other words, your chapter refusing to follow the policies set forth only makes your national weaker. But if you feel you are more important than the chapters that follow the rules, then I guess you can rationalize your hazing.

I'm sorry to hear about this happening. We never want to hear bad things about any chapter, anywhere--but-it shows that we aren't going to cover up anything and we don't condone it. When we can discuss it openly here, among ourselves and possibly come up with solutions, it only helps everyone and all of our organizations. I think that parents and prospective rushees can respect that.

[This message has been edited by pledgetrainer2 (edited March 26, 2001).]

Lil_G,

You can achieve this!!!!! That’s my point. But it all starts with the kind of Brotherhood you have in your Chapter and how you create it. Yes, you must create it. It does not just happen. Remember, we are talking about 17-19 year olds who are away from their parents, probably, for the first time in their lives. They are very impressionable. It is that imprint that you, as the Brother, leave on him that guides these later decisions. The decisions that you make as a Brother are based on what? I am now old enough that many of the active Brothers’ fathers(paternal) have become my friends. I now have that additional perspective to place into the equation. I have never heard a derogatory remark from a parent. I have had quite a few absolutely astonished parents offer us their other children to polish off. To me, that is the ultimate complement. It does not go unnoticed to the pledges and new Brothers when parents notice change and the maturation. No system is perfect, ours certainly is not, but were working on it. You should be also. I wish I could lay it out for you, but as you know, I can’t. I believe that my Chapters bonds and Brotherhood is second to none. But my opinion is biased. I also believe that your or any other Chapter of any Fraternity could also have it. It takes an absolute dedication to the principles and ideals of the Chapter. Also, like I said in a previous post, it takes the "intestinal fortitude" too make the hard decisions. Every Fraternity or traditional families have "Black Sheep", and you must trim the fat or you get lazy and sloppy. We take no pride in censoring a Brother, but sometimes it must be done for the good of the whole. Those Chapters that do not or can not do it pay the price. Unfortunately, they also reflect negatively on my Fraternity, my Chapter, my belief in Brotherhood, my Brothers and me as a member of a GLO.

shadokat,

That is mostly true. However, we do not shed a bad light on our Nationals in a public way. If we do ever lose the self discipline as a Chapter and cause our National Fraternity to be criticized, then we will pay and justly so. Yes, we are taking liberties that some might say we should not. Are we being pompous and arrogant in our ways? Maybe. Are we putting our Chapters' charter at risk? Definitely. Are we putting our National Fraternity at risk? No. Are we risking the possibility that there could be bad publicity shed on the National at some point in the future? Yes. Where does that leave us? Its a matter of your perspective. If we followed the letter of the rules and the hazing laws, our chapter would cease too exist.

All of this no hazing, dry house, third party servers bullsh*t is a product of insurance companies. I believe that a few Fraternities nationals truly try to in-force the no hazing rules to the letter, mine does not. While by the letter it is against the rules, it goes with a wink. Also, by the letter of the law, it is illegal. It is also illegal, by the letter of the law, to have oral sex in the State of Georgia and to wear one pant leg inside your boot in the State of Texas if you don't own a 100,000 head of cattle. It is pretty much a Blue law, until you screw up and hurt someone. The solution in our case is to never place a pledge in harms way. Of course, our pledges don't know this. Our pledge program is very regimented. It is scripted too the letter. There is NEVER any freelancing.

Anyway, the bottom line is that we do take liberties that many would say are not ours too take. We do understand the risk. We accept the risk to preserve our ways. The reason is simple, the reward outweighs the risk. The level of commitment to Brotherhood in my Chapter is unparalleled in anything that I have ever seen.

Do you know the difference between involvement and commitment? It is a parallel relationship to a ham and egg breakfast. The chicken was involved.......................................... ...the pig was committed.

N2,
So are you saying that the only way you can have a strong chapter is by hazing? Also, what do define as hazing? I've read in your posts what you think it is not, and the things you are against, but not what you think it is.

N2, I can't speak for all national organizations, but I can say that our policies are not stated with a wink. We are quite serious when we say we do not condone hazing in any forms.

I do agree with one thing you said. The liberty of hazing is not one you can take without reprecussions. I do not claim to know what is involved in your new member program.

When a fraternity does takes the liberties that one has done in this case of Sigma Nu, they jeopardize the national. Imagine if someone had sued the national fraternity over the hazing allegations. That national fraternity may not be able to deal with the expense and resources involved in a lawsuit. Therefore, the chapter jeopardizes the entire national fraternity by making the choices they do.

I hope you can read this and understand that this isn't a direct cut on your fraternity, but the idea that the actions of one chapter can truly harm the future of an entire national organization.

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Delta Phi Epsilon, Celebrating 84 years of Dedication, Pride and Excellence!

N2,
while I don't deny that some parts of hazing serve constuctive puposes: e.g. torking, it is unplesant, but it serves a function.

What I don't believe is that your chapter can maintain the same program without any variance. If you have never lost a pledge into your program, then congratulations, your chapter is pure efficacy. But the one that I de-pledged did, and what they exercised was maybe even worse than what you're talking about. I never ever thought i would drop out, and i'm sure none of my freinds thought that I would, but I did. The fraternity I pledged did not do a good enough job in keeping their pledges. While I understood everything they did, In some parts I didn't agree with it because I saw the negative side effects. In no way do I resent this organisation, or its members, I made a choice that I could start a fraternity better than any available on campus.

Anyways, I'm saying that my pledge program is very challenging and time consuming (for all involved), and it has allowed us to maintain a very tight brotherhood without enforcing some really outdated rite of passage.

Billy,

I guess I've been away a while. I can't give you the specifics. You can look up the definition of hazing. Almost everything we do falls into hazing. NEVER physical or alcohol involved. The process has 3 phases. Breakdown, education, and build up. In the first phase the pledge can do nothing correct. Most of their social habits are broken. We change everything from the way they dress, hairstyle, eat, wipe their ass, ect. As time goes on they have less and less time to spend on outside interest and friendships. Almost all of our DE-pledges come in this phase. For the ones that stay, this is the point that they give up being an individual. They identify their success' and failures' with that of the pledge class. During education they learn all they need to know about acceptable behavior, the Fraternity, Brotherhood, ect. The build up is the most fascinating. The pledge class is placed into situations that they can deal with and succeed on a regular basis. The task become more difficult and much more personal as time goes on. Finally, they get to the point where the pledge class needs the Brothers to succeed, and the Brothers produce. When they get to the level that they are not hesitant or embarrassed by anything, they are ready to begin initiation week.

Lil_G,

We have lost pledges, mostly in the first few weeks. We try very hard not to isolate anyone that DE-pledges. The brothers go out of their way to be friendly with them. We did issue them a bid because they do posses redeeming qualities. Luckily, we have never had an ex-pledge go out of his way to expose what we do. I am sure it will happen one day. The real risk is a late pledge period Black Ball.

Any 30+ year Alumni would recognize our pledge period as his. It has not changed much. One of our highest ideals is tradition. Violating it in my Chapter can be a fatal sin. I believe that this commitment to tradition was a fundamental element to our foundation and a leading contributor to our successes. In my Chapter you reach the summit of Brotherhood as an Alumni Brother, not as an active. The active Chapter answers to the Alumni in a similar manner as the pledges answer to the Brothers. I have seen other Chapters that have strayed because they have initiated a few strong wildcats that get in and start changing things for the worse. It can't happen in my house.

It's sad whenever a fraternity or sorority is removed from campus because it weakens the Greek system as a whole, not to mention what it does to the organization that has lost a chapter! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif