Ah, I see where this is going...I won't slip in that crack. But I will say this...I have love for all and I am not going to get into defending who has the right to claim what.

I stand by my previous statements as they relate to the circumstance of NPHC organizations being used to make money in step shows. I can not and will not speak on any other groups ,including yours, in terms of how I feel the some of money in the end...(not the prize money) should be donated to a philanthropy.

As far as the WHY Greek Letter organizations as NPHC members prescribe...I invite you to view the Temple of Blue
http://3n1promo.com/temple/p7.html

Enjoy!



------------------
Zeta Phi Beta Sorority, Incorporated...Every Finer Woman's Dream!

I would invite any group to particiapte. I think it would help relations. I know we have step shows at ECU and no NPC or IFC actually steps, probably too embarassed to even try but we pay for tickets and enjoy watching!
This year in AZD's allsing my Kappa Delta chapter and Phi Beta Sigma worked together and they showed us how to "step". I thought it was a great idea, but that's at my school, we placed 3rd. They showed us how talented they are and we showed that we could do something productive together.
As for non NPHC groups not understanding the origin of the step show, why not have a small intro of what it is and why it is so important, it would be interesting and you could actally educate some groups/members, like me. I think it would be an honor for the NPHC Pres to do it, it would be a fun event and help with programming.
BUT that's from a college point of view, I have never seen these sponsored shows, with tons of peolpe watching or participating!

[This message has been edited by ecukd (edited May 04, 2001).]

Hey there,

I was a Senior Letter Girl in HS, which is a girl who is like a "cheerleader," but instead, she steps along with five other girls. It was so fun! And we made our own steps up, too...

The school/teams loved us!!! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

May I ask, what is a step show?

------------------
Sarah
Sister Lots-a-Heart, #9
President, Iota Beta Chi Sorority
http://welcome.to/iotabetachi

I think that non-HBGLOs sould not *step* in the sense that NPHC groups do (ie cheerleaders, Perishing Rifles, etc). Imitation is not the sincerest form of flattery. However, it is a mockery when Blacks join non-HBGLOs but still want to 'show' like HBGLOs. My feeling is that you chose not to associate with a HBGLO so you have no priveledge (sp?) to the traditions we hold dear (ie stepping, calls, handsigns, etc).

However, I do not have a problem with non-NPHC HBGLOs stepping for exhibition in a NPHC-sponsored show. As long as they are identified as non-affiliated then I do not see a problem. After all, to me 'stepping' is a HBGLO tradition, not just NPHC.



------------------
MCCOYRED
Mu Psi '86
BaltCo Alumnae

Dynamic...Salient...Temperate...Since 1913

Soror, we sure did debate that one! IF you have not read it, check out http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/...ML/001718.html

Soror, THATS the thread I was thinking of when I addressed this issue. I did not comment too much in that thread because I have not had much experience with APhiO or GSS.

*thinking*
Is it a coincidence who started this thread?

------------------
MCCOYRED
Mu Psi '86
BaltCo Alumnae

Dynamic...Salient...Temperate...Since 1913

[This message has been edited by mccoyred (edited May 02, 2001).]

I was waiting for someone to comment on that. I would but its not my place. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

I'm part of a latin based fraternity and had the pleasure of watching a step show in Iowa. It was great because they had a variety of different fraternities and Soroities. *The Zeta's were off the hook!*

Dongkun "Papi Chulo" Ko
Sigma Lambda Beta Fraternity Inc
AB Chapter
University of MN
15 of 22 www.sigmalambdabeta.com

Ansolutely no coincidence mccoyred.

Seems to me like jaybee just wanted an excuse to get back into that issue. Soe people are never going to agree with his org (not even the whole org, but just a couple of chapters, no less!!) calling and hand signs, and that is just reality. stepping is different in that it is not something historically done ONLY by black Greek NPHC orgs, anyone can do it.

Sista-girl, You took the words right out of my mouth! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

Nobody will agree with my organization/ Mockery Dang!

Let me say this, It only the people that are not use to our organizations that has a problem with us stepping. We have been stepping for several years. To agree with it or not isn't even a point. Just because your organizations are on several campuses it really doesn't mean that the National Pan own the act. I still haven't heard history on the subject, history that says NPHC Organizations began stepping and every one else followed.

I went to the site earlier suggested. It was quite interesting. It told how the Greek letters originated from Nubian phonetics, and Egyptian hieroglyphs. But it talks as if blacks (own/basically created) The Greek lettering system. This is the exactly the same kind of rhetoric going own here. We are using Greek Letters from a Greek society that used some of the culture of Egyptians to help there advance their own society. However, we are not using any Egyptian hieroglyphs are we? No, the culture of Greek is definitely a white society, no matter how black we say it is. Our organizations are based on a British enhanced American Fraternal Heritage. We are using the American Fraternal System to help advance our own society. You have to agree with that. That's simple fact. But now go to the blacks in white founded organizations. I know that they are doing the exact same thing. The same thing the Greeks did with an Egyptians society. We are going in a white founded culture and using the values we found in it to help advance our own society. It is not people who developed these values that we follow; it is the inspirations of the values itself. What is racist, is to think that white people can be inspire a white founded organization to develop values and to think those values will not work in a black society. And so is the reverse.


[Quota]
We are then faced with a situation where ten years down the road the receiving (majority) culture is claiming the act as their own with no thought to its African/African-American origins. If non-NPHC groups steps, they need to learn the history and properly respect and acknowledge stepping's origins
[/Quota]


Thanks for showing me that web site. It supports my views more than I imagined. It stated "If you check the history of any Black Greek Lettered Organization you will find that their purpose was based on some particular need on the campus or in the local Black community." When I joined a White Founded organization, I saw the organization as being useful. Their purpose was based on some particular need on any campus or in any local community, including black communities and campuses. Also on that web site
They mentioned that Stepping evolved with groups of guys singing acappella, and when groups like the Temptations and the Four Tops were popular in the 50's and 60's brothers started mimicking their steps. Considering that we existed around the same time, on a campus would be possibly be involve in mimicking steps as well in 1947 Johnson C. Smith, I don't a case can be made as to stepping being own by National Pan-Hellenic Council. And since that history mentioned only Black Fraternities, it means every black sorority is guilty of what you are accusing other groups of black people of doing.

[Quota]
Seems to me like JayBEE! just wanted an excuse to get back into that issue.
[/Quota]

I think you should ask JayBEE! That question. This is an issue with stepping. Because I'm over the animosity that some individuals (Not whole organization) have with Non-Historically Black Greek Lettered Organizations. As are other individuals of NPHC who have step in an Alpha Phi Omega step show recently, and NPHC organization who have invited Gamma Sigma Sigma to step in a their show recently. All happened this semester just as they did 10 or more years ago.

Let us go back to visit the original question. If you conducted a step show, would you invite another organization to step as exhibition if they were not a National Pan-Hellenic Council organization? I didn't say compete, I didn't say that they were inviting National Pan-Hellenic Council organizations to step in their step show. Some people did answer that question. I'm basically trying to find out if your reason for not inviting is either justified, nose in the air snobbishness, we-can-only-do-it selfishness or even racist. Because I went to a Historically Black University, in the Deep Deep South, and the entire campus stepped, not just the organizations of the NPHC organizations. What is strange is that it seems that organizations on non-Historically black campuses have more of a problem with it than those that are from Historically black campuses.

[Quota]
As long as they are identified as non-affiliated
[/Quota]

What does this mean? I can't see us identifying ourselves as anything but who we are. The one thing I will not do is say that I am a non-you/non-xxxx. We don't have to say that. If people ask, of course we tell them that we are not governed or apart of the National Pan-Hellenic Council.

The thing to remember is that we are of the same. People that step, white, Latino, Asian. or whatever knows where that black is where it originated. I'm not mad at Elvis for liking what we love and taking a style and enhancing himself with the sounds he loved to do. I'm not mad at white men for dating beautiful black women, for falling in love with what is so easy to fall in love with. I'm not mad at the BackStreet Boys for Bringing limelight to an activity that will lead others to find it in the heritage of black society. I'm not mad at the Greeks for using some of the culture of Egyptians to help their advance their own society.

We came a long way from times of hatred. And amiss that hatred was white people walking right beside us in protest. Let me say it like this…. before Martin Luther King graduated from college in 1958; before nine Little Rock, Ark., schoolchildren were escorted to Central High School by federal troops, ending efforts to thwart court-ordered integration in 1957; and Before Rosa Parks refused to give her bus seat to a white man in Montgomery, Alabama in 1955, Alpha Phi Omega allowed a black campus to have a chapter of a white founded organization in 1947. Why? Because our society could use an organization just like this one.

Peace!

In SoCali, not LA, 4 NPHC affiliates worked hard to put on a step show in conjunction with an organization that brought a "Black College Football Classic" back to the state of California. The 4 NPHC affiliate benefited financial from this first show. That following year, because of what seems unclear to this day but is perceived as "shady" business, this organization caused the affiliates to financially suffer severely for 2nd show. After that and following years, to this day, the organization which set up "Black College Football Classic" in the state of California, decided to abscond the hard work and labor the 4 NPHC affiliate did and took all the money for themselves. But little did they know that the NPHC and the affiliates have copyrighted symbols, letters and insignia. These folks didn't realize the NPHC affiliate connections. So there was an all out boycott against this particular step show. Folks attending the show said it completely sucked since no NPHC organization will help sponsor the show...

Just a word of caution, anyone can have a step show but it won't be a "Greek Show" or a "Yard Show". There won't be any NPHC greeks stepping in a show if you override our influences on ALL movements called steps! What you don't want to do is alienate the HBGLO's from stepping. It would be a big mistake, bad for business, and not a good tactic...

It is all of the above. With all the Khametic knowlege you are espousing, how is it racist? http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif There are reasons why the traditional HBGLO's letters are not Afro-centric to what an Afrocentrist-NOT Afrikan Centered--would want to see... I cannot go into details on this forum. You may email me privately if you want to know more...

Okay, your point? So what, you are a part of a Europeeon caucasiod based organization. AND? Oh, you want to call yourselves stepping? Like why can't your organization "step" on the "yard"? Hmmmmm. Let's think about that. You said you are a 20 year member of your organization? Did you pledge in the 1970's? Were you on a "line"? What was your number, line name, who was your front and back? How many were on your line? What was one of your names? Did you probate??? How did your line show out during other collegiate events? How did you pledge?

Stepping started because kidnapped and enslaved Afrikans were not allowed to speak to each other. They were not allowed to play makeshift drums to communicate with each other. So all the ancestors had left was to "step". The slave master thought it was a funny little "jig" that his slaves would do, laughed at it, then got mad when it wouldn't stop. Hence, that is were the repulsion comes from when some folks see "stepping" for the first time--and that is why some NPHC affiliate members do not like the idea of non-BGLO's or any GLO participating in a large public "Step Correct" step show...

Granted the steps have become more innovative as time has gone by, but dancing in Afrikan has spiritual meaning. It is a time to heal and solve problems in relationships. Mimicry does not justify the true Afrikan Centered spirit when done by those who want to look cute. Stepping is a religious event for the NPHC affiliates. And if a non-NPHC BGLO, 20 years or older wishes to be a part of that tradition, then they ought to pay for it!

And don't go there with "get over it", slavery is gone from amerikkklan, 'cuz I need to get reparated to see any changes...

Personally, I don't care if you all have a step show and get a whole bunch of advertisers and sponsors. I think you all will look rather bizarre with no NPHC affiliates in it. But oh well, guess I'm SOL... And really, all I am worried about is rolling blackouts and trying to pay my light bill http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif



[This message has been edited by AKA_Monet (edited May 03, 2001).]

Hmmm ...

I have been debating with myself on whether or not I wanted to get in on this but well, what the heck, everyone ELSE has, so here's my 19.63 on the topic.

This is actually two topics:

1) Should non-NPHC groups be allowed to perform in stepshows?
2) Should we allow ourselves to be "pimped" by promoters of stepshows?

I'll start with the second one, first:

I am absolutely, unequivocally AGAINST stepshows and promoters who sponsor these shows, pocket tens of thousands of dollars, and then walk away with the money. I have seen quite a few of these shows over the years (some sponsored by people who are members of NPHC organizations ... ofttimes NON-FINANCIAL members, I might add) and it makes me sick!

These people promote these shows and make more money than you can imagine -- $25K, sometimes as much as $50K. They give a measly one or two thousand dollars in prize money and then call it a day. In the meantime, the causes and philanthropies that our organizations support go unsupported and unrecognized. That's pimping and we need to put a stop to it. The easiest way is for teams to ask UP FRONT where the money is going. If the organizations aren't happy with the distribution of proceeds, then we need to not participate. Period.


Now, regarding the first issue, "Should non-NPHC groups be allowed to perform in stepshows,my answer is, "It depends." I personally reject all this espousal of stepping as a "spiritual experience." The research I have seen indicates that stepping in BGLO's started as a form of ENTERTAINMENT and PR. It started in the 50's/60's with singing (or "serenading" as it was sometimes called) and progressed from there. Over time, it has evolved into the elaborate productions we have come to know and expect.

All this discussion of stepping having originated with "The African Boot Dance" is something I don't buy. I definitely realize that there are common origins in that people of African Descent all over the world have ALWAYS expressed ourselves in dance, song, and movement. Further, after the stepping (as we know it) became more popular and widespread, certain organizations (Phi Beta Sigma comes immediately to mind) made a special effort to learn of the way it was done in Africa and then incorporate those styles and rhythms into the American Collegiate idiom. The same thing occurred with the "Step Afrika" project that Alpha Phi Alpha (and I think Delta Sigma Theta) have been involved in. I think that is a wonderful and self-affirming thing for us as African-Americans to connect with our African roots. That has power and we should continue to do so.

What we should NOT do however, is pretend that stepping is something it isn't. We also should be honest about why we don't want Non-NPHC groups to step in our shows. I was a member of Iota Phi Theta (an obviously BLACK Fraternal Organization) for 16 years before we were admitted into the NPHC and you better believe that in more cases than not, we were NOT ALLOWED to perform in these shows. The reason was always "Well, you aren't in the NPHC, so you can't perform. Period. From the Philly Greek Picnic stepshow to the Freaknic step show, the response was always the same: "You aren't in the NPHC so you don't get to play in the reindeer games."

Since we have been in the NPHC, folks don't have a rationale to exclude us anymore so now we "get to play with the big boys," as it were. Don't think for a minute that we don't realize that a lot of folks still don't want us there but that's a moot point.

I have a real problem with members of NPHC groups who place themselves on a pedestal of "Greek Superiority" when it comes to certain issues. We get mad when KKPsi and APO step. We get mad with the Latino organizations have hand-signs and calls. We get mad at everybody but ourselves -- and we need to be mad. Mad about the rampant injuries from hazing. Mad about the lack of community service that some of us don't do. Mad that Black Greekdom no longer has the panache that it once did. That panache came from conducting ourselves and ladies and gentlemen who were "a cut above" and "beyond reproach." These days we get involved with all kinds of behaviors that would have our founders rolling in their graves.

We can restore this panache and prestige if we work on handling our business but being the arbiters of "who gets to step where and how" won't do anything but divide us.

------------------
IotaNet
Iota Phi Theta Fraternity, Inc.
Alpha Eta Chapter, Spring, 1980

Kappa Kappa Psi Honorary Band Fraternity
Zeta Nu Chapter, Spring, 1979

I see this statement needs some help. I don't look at my organization as just white founded, even though it is. To look at it that way first, is to not look at a car because some white man is selling it. Or to not eat at Kentucky Fried Chicken because some white man owns it. I look at the values of my organization, because it is a colorblind organization. It's values hit's every race. Any other view is racist.

No, we have stepped and competed and won. Your views are too new. It's a little bit late for "calling" ourselves stepping. Hello?

No, like if there was an APO or Gamma Sigma Sigma chapter nearby or on campus would invite them to step. They can step on the yard already, if they want to. Hello?

Why? Why would I even want to entertain your questions. Each one could be answered. But what difference that make. See this is what I'm talking about, this newbie thinks that me answering her questions will make me legit. Dang! Must be a neo. Yep I was on a line in 1ine in 1980, ya heard! Yep I was a 15 on a charter line. Yep, we stomped out some steps. Yep, I was in some shows. But what am I doing now? Nothing with this thread. That's just your entertainment, because the information teaches you nothing about my frat.

See you are lost, so what? Let's say stepping started as you say. Tell me if I walked into that same plantation wouldn't I be subjected to the same communication restrictions. Dang!

Is that what you think your doing, providing "true African centered spirit"? I have really heard it all now. So in your point of view if you step, then you are committing "true African centered spirit". Let me go right there. Let's go to Africa. Let's just say a Chinese man falls out of the sky and lands on his head in Africa. He forgets who he is. Let's just say the nearest tribe raises him. And he learns some African culture. Let's now say he makes his way to the United States to your campus. And you are doing a step show. And he sees something familiar but not quite correct. He then hears you say something like "this is in tribute to the true African Centered spirit". Does he have the right, this Chinese man, to tell you that you did something wrong when regarding the "true African Centered spirit"?

In my book he does. But he would be more attune to what a true African Centered spirit is. The issue is not what is a true spirit or not. It is your coveting of a act that you are saying other blacks and whites do not have the right to do. Mimicry justified another organizations didn't it? Our organization is not just trying to look cute, that was really basic of you.

Oh my god! I thought that your earlier explanation was the cake. I'm now looking at a bigger pastry! Stepping is a annual thing for our organizations. Deep traditionally. But what do I care about how NPHC affiliates think of us stepping. People in India worship cows. We eat them over here. This is not a question of if we will step. That's happening. We have an Annual National Step Show Contest between our family two organizations every year.

No we do not want to be part of someone else's tradition. We have our own. That's right. Other groups have tradition. Not just NPHC groups. Dang! Sorry, to bring you up to date.

I'm so over somebody attempting to correct my organizations long standing stepping history. You can pinch yourself and squash that dream in a instance. I've entertained discussion on that lower level countless times. Time to move on. My issue of discussion is far past that. Some of you have answered my question, others are still on cloud "we own that". Historically several NPHC groups have invited us in competition. And I knew some of you did not know that. So that's why I came with exhibition. Whether or not you believe a step show has to have NPHC group represented is very irrelevant. Not a this issue of this thread. Dang!


[This message has been edited by JayBEE! (edited May 04, 2001).]