I am a feminist. I've thought about this a lot. I don't think you can say the sorority movement is all one or the other. On the whole, though, I think the sorority movement is more feminist than not. In this case, I'm defining feminism as a movement which seeks equal opportunity for women, control over their lives and bodies equal to the control that men have, and freedom to define themselves outside of gender stereotypes.

The roots of the sorority movement are clearly feminist. The founders were doing something unusual by pursuing advanced education and they banded together to support each other.

Modern sororities are involved in lots of feminist work. They develop female leaders. They develop female friendships and female professional networks. They engage in philanthropy work that helps women. (Girl Scouts, Breast Cancer prevention, camping for girls) along with lots of philanthropies that help families and children. They also demand good grades and push their members on excelling academically, which furthers their professional careers. Programming in my chapter also furthered health awareness and professional development for sisters.

I totally agree, KDCat.

Yes -this. I also consider myself a feminist and am in a profession with very low participation of women. I have shocked a couple colleagues that didn't realize I was a "sorority chick." Many of the perception problems with sororities are a PR problem. We have often discussed that if all we promote are the beauty queens - that is all anyone is going to see. We do not advertise all the things we do.

Chapters do a lot now with leadership training and public relations, both for the chapter and the university. There is definitely networking both socially and career networking. In a chapter with good alumnae relationships, this extends into mentoring.

I'm actually pretty surprised by this, because you are ex-military, no? I'm not really sure why, but in my head, it seems like women in the military would be more likely to believe in equality of the sexes. Maybe I'm way off, though, this is just a gut reaction I haven't really thought through.

Oh, agreed. I just think that most non-Greek perceptions of sororities come from big schools.

This is true, but if you take a look at the sorority rush forum, I'd bet that better than 75% of threads are about what to wear, with about 15% on recs, and 10% on conversation, etc. (yes, I'm making these numbers up based on my perception, if anyone wants to check the math, it would be interesting). I don't think that a comparable forum on interviewing would look like that. In fact, the blog I read most often about interviewing (AAM) hardly ever touches on fashion/appearance.

You don't know what school I went to, but you resent a comment I made about what was SOP at my alma mater in the 1990's? :confused:

I'd consider feminism to be about lots of things, and I think that your point here maybe gets to the core of what I've been batting around in my head. On one hand, I think sororities do a lot for the things you mention: advances and leadership in the workplace or education.

However, I also think an important part of feminism is the elimination of violence against women and rape culture, and that's a harder assessment. So, let me see if I can sort this out:

I think there is a perception from non-Greeks that sororities contribute to rape culture. I think this is occasionally true in a very direct way, e.g. my serenades example, certain mixer themes, etc. HOWEVER, the obvious counterargument is that these types of things are probably very prevalent among non-greeks as well, on the campuses where they are most a problem. So, if your school has a "hookup culture", it has that whether you are Greek or not.

But that second part doesn't quite sit well with me as a sort of blanket excuse. The Greek system most definitely reinforces certain norms that underlie the objectification of women, and a few times/year some leaks to the media some horrible e-mail sent around a fraternity house in which women are referred to as objects (I am not going to link them all here, but the google will turn up enough in a quick search that I wouldn't chalk these up to isolated incidents). Of course, it's not the job of a sorority to fix the behavior of a fraternity, but it's hard to separate one half of the Greek system from the other.

It's also interesting that most of the stuff out there on sororities and rape culture mentions that sororities encourage promiscuity, which can be true, but in my experience, there's just as much of the opposite, as I mentioned above.

Again, I know none of this is unique to fraternities and sororities, but I am struggling with the ways in which this occurs.

But that second part doesn't quite sit well with me as a sort of blanket excuse. The Greek system most definitely reinforces certain norms that underlie the objectification of women, and a few times/year some leaks to the media some horrible e-mail sent around a fraternity house in which women are referred to as objects (I am not going to link them all here, but the google will turn up enough in a quick search that I wouldn't chalk these up to isolated incidents). Of course, it's not the job of a sorority to fix the behavior of a fraternity, but it's hard to separate one half of the Greek system from the other.

Rape culture is a problem across most college campuses. The Greek system, like many other aspects of college culture and institutions, has been formed by that culture and contributed to forming that culture. However, the Greek system also has the institutional structure in place to push back against rape culture. Our collegiate members are young, but as alumnae and alumni we can encourage our members to be aware of the culture. We can demand higher standards of behavior from our men and zero tolerance for bad behavior. We can educate our members on what rape culture is and why it needs to go.

I agree. Are we doing that?

I think we need to define what rape culture is, and what responsibility is.

DeltaBetaBaby,
Nope. I'm not a feminist, even though I am ex-military. I do respect feminists but, I am probably pretty far from one. I have to say that there still isn't much equality in the military--though we can all pretend there is. Even when going to war, men worry about getting murdered. Women (at least my female battle buddies and I) worried about first getting raped/ tortured and then murdered. It just goes through your head. In the Army, the PT standards aren't even the same. Don't even get me started on sexual harassment. I could go on for days about the things I've seen and experienced in regards to being sexually harassed. I also think that there is this idea that women in the military have more of a masculine way about them (stereotype). I remember when I walked into a room full of ROTC cadets in college and they were all excited I was a decorated war veteran, their eagerness to meet the war veteran subsided when I walked in with manicured nails, long hair, make-up, and very feminine clothes. They had expected something much different. I think the military is a great discussion in regards to feminism but, I don't want to take over your topic because I think it's pretty great.

My experience about this is from the view of a fraternity guy during the era when feminism was young: the '70s, but I think that it may be of interest to some. We need to know where we were to know where we are.

When I was a Pledge, our school still made all of the women sign in and out of the dorms in the evening (much like Emily Dickenson College in Animal House), and the sororities were not housed because they needed to be 'kept safe'. There were other restrictions and assumptions implied by the In Loco Parentis attitude as well.

But within a few years, this had all been swept aside and everyone was treated equally. I'm not saying that all was perfect, only that there was general equality between the genders on the part of the school.

This change was largely caused by the women themselves. The female campus leadership, the most active and visible women, and the women who were willing to help out whenever the school asked for a favor, were almost always sorority women, so they had influence. These 17 through 21 years olds changed a lot of ossified attitudes of self-important men.

Many of the sorority women that I knew, would not have considered themselves Feminists while others would, but in matters of equality like these, they were all together.

They would never put what happened back then as "They all stood together to ....". They would think that that would be making too much of it. They just knew what was right. They choose their sisterhood. They chose to live their lives according to their own principles. They choose to be treated as equals, so they were.

I don't think that feminism means that I need to go out and burn my bra on the quad or that I can't enjoy a nice manicure.

I like to think of it like the Nike insoles in my ColeHaan pumps?

If you look at how far things have come in the last hundred years, it's pretty surprising. Most of my girls don't realize.

Some Examples:

100 years ago at Cal - they were very progressive in that they let women take chemistry - but they had to sit behind a screen so they would not distract the men.

In the 20s(?) Texas agreed to allow women as students - but didn't build any dorms, so sororities and the Scottish Rite built housing.

At about that same time, southern schools started allowing women to take classes, but there were limitations since the only really acceptable professions were nursing or teaching or maybe accounting in your father's business. The chemistry building built at Texas at that time had no ladies rooms (except a small one by the office for the secretaries) - because they didn't expect to need them.

Chemistry buildings built at UGA and Cal in the 1960s would also be built without facilities for women in the research sections.

I have a friend who - in the 60s - received a scholarship offer that actually includes in the letter that she should not Accept it so that a deserving young man could make better use of it? She would go on to be one of the first women to get a degree in chemistry on another campus instead.

At that same time, women on my campus had to wear heavy raincoats over sweatsuits in 90 degree heat to walk to PE classes on the other side of campus so as not to be disruptive? (Note: no changing facilty for women by the PE center?) They also had to sign out of the dorm or get a letter of permission from their parents to go to the lake with a friend on the weekend.

And last summer - Iran fired many tenured professors in fields they decided were "unsuitable" for women.

So Yes, I still think that we have an obligation to give a step up to the little sisters behind us.

ETA: even if all you can do is provide a good example...

I wonder what exactly you think feminism means?

Unfortunately, like many people in her age group, she probably equates feminism with man-hating and overentitlement (gender feminism) instead of what it really is, equal opportunities to prove yourself (equity feminism).

I've known women of every generation who are without a doubt feminists in terms of their support for the rights and equality of women, but who have not wanted to be called "feminist" because of the connotations and baggage that they perceive go with the term.

Yes, feminism still recognizes the strengths and differences of each gender (or trans or bi - for that matter.) As a feminist though, I don't think that she should have to put up with sexual harassment or hazing because her chosen profession is historically male dominated.

You sure have a knack for finding fault with everything I say. Why is that?