gamma girl,

you pretty much summed up what i was feeling. it all boils down to originality.

nowadays everyone steps (from high school teams, to church groups, to whoever..) so I dont think that's an issue. but the fact that some of the chapters from the 2 organizations use "symbols" and traditions that are KNOWN to have originated from (or have been made synonomous-sp? with) NPHC organizations is disturbing to some!

the Gamma Phi Deltas here on the west coast do steps/strolls, have a hand sign, and a call and no one trips off of them cause NONE of their traditions are things that can be SEEN or HEARD from any other organization (NIC, NPHC, or other).

(here i am taking it back to me just not understanding...) but if your national body doesnt recognize what ya'll have adopted why would (or why was) it put into place in the first place? I mean really, if all the SGRhos in Cali just up and decided we liked elephants better than poodles so we're gonna use that as our mascot , would that make sense?

I guess my biggest things are:
1. Why would you want to represent yourself in a manner that you national body doesnt even support?

and

2. even if you decided to do so anyway (which you have), there are many ways you can position your hands and fingers, and tons of sounds that can be made by the human voice... why these?

**i'm not trying to jump on anyone or anything, i honestly just dont get it**

prettypoodle6, I'm a brother of APO and I don't get it either.

Many organizations do things that are "chapter specific" but they are usually events or a certain philanthropy - not the whole way you present yourself on campus and socialize.

As was said before, a Delta could go to any campus and the call would be the same. If I walked onto a campus wearing APO letters and heard someone do a call that is supposed to represent my organization, I would have no idea what is going on. I'm not saying every chapter should be identical, and I'm not questioning the service getting done - I KNOW it's getting done, or your chapter wouldn't exist - but to me, this is the same concept as if, say, an NPHC sorority would go through the NPC rush process. APO is UNIQUE - all students are welcomed, and I believe if anything is put in the way that prevents anyone from joining that is contrary to what the purpose of the fraternity is.

I hope I got across what I was trying to say, and didn't step on any toes.

Pretty poodle, before I answer your questions, I would like to address a few items:

As far as your comments in the first paragraph, I can see where you are coming from to some extent. The Sigma Rhomeos, a male auxillary group of your sorority, uses the same call as Alpha Phi Omega (Skeet Skeet!), with the occasional twist of -MEO! at the end of it. Personally I don't find that disturbing, albeit confusing, given we share the same colors. Again, as far as usage of traditions that originated with NPHC groups, Latino and Black non-NPHC groups have followed suit but I have heard no flak from NPHC directed to them to that effect.

Answer to Question #1 - This may have more to do with the general culture of the 25/52 orgs, and possible NIC/NPC orgs as well vs. the general culture of NPHC orgs--Historically mainstream orgs tend to allow traditions to vary by chapter, whereas NPHC orgs tend to keep the same basic traditions throughout the org as a whole. As far as 25/52, the National bodies does not endorse or recognize any one chapter's traditions or culture over another. I know that with our org, some chapters even have their own colors, a concept I have never understood. I do know that with GSS, they do not have one National mascot, but one that varies by chapter. Some adopt the penguin, some the bullfrog, some Raggedy Ann, some the panda bear, etc. That is because the basis of both orgs recognizes the need for diversity.

Question #2 - Can't answer that, as the origins for the call and signs were started at least one generation (about 22 years) back, maybe two. This is nothing new.

Hope this helps

Match Game '73

Folx,

I ran into a link that involved a discussion between an NPHCer and an APhiQ that touched on many of the issues and concerns that I am hearing now.

members.tripod.com/~JBSkeet/IndexFrame.html

Click on page two, then click on "APO on Page Three". You will notice topics of commentary and discussion from the webmaster on his experiences with Alpha Phi Omega. The discussion with the NPHCer is under the heading "Who Are We...Clearing the Air"
Hope this helps

[This message has been edited by Rain Man (edited April 21, 2001).]

Aww man, look at the flames, look at the flames...

dstbrat, my chapter is also located a large, majority institution (Georgia State University) and like I said before, our chapter is respected and looked at as a "real" greek organization. We don't go where we're not invited and start drama with anyone. We're not trying to be down that badly :C)

The first thing I tell people is, "We're not affiliated with ANY greek council" right off the bat. When asked "Are you greek?" my answer is, "Yes!". That's how we feel. We know that we're a service organization first and foremost, but we are greek at heart and people see that.

PrettyPoodle, the call I use means something to me. It has a meaning to all that use it. It doesn't mean that I woke up this morning and said, "Hmm...how about I go and disrespect the Deltas and AKA's today?" As for the sign...GSS has several signs that are region-specific. The one that you are talking about, everyone doesn't use; as a matter of fact, the one sign that EVERY chapter uses looks nothing like that. And no, our Nationals will probably never endorse any of this. Why? They view it as something "local" not national. Trust, many of us have already approached Nationals about recognizing it, but I doubt it.

This can go on and on because 1) not every GSS and APO chapter is experiencing this, so they wouldn't know what the problem is and 2)everyone has their own opinion about it. So can we move on please! RM, see what you started? :C)

In Service,
gamma_girl

I had never heard of Gamma Sigma Sigma , until one of my Sorors told me about them. Alpha Phi Omega was just becoming active
(or reactivating) at Howard when I was graduating. They operated more under the tenet of an scholarly and service fraternity. There was NO issue with them at Howard University. I believe often times said "animosity" is isolated.

I will say this, I think the issue raised by the member who stated she would not recognize someone if they did a call, is valid. Who decided it was okay that some members will emulate NPHC orgs and some will not? Is n't that exclusionary to your own members to act in such a matter?

Dare chapters create rituals and processes unrecognized by its membership...where is the unification of process? Please, do NOT answer this question...Its just one of those outsider things that make you go ...hmm.

I would be disturbed if my Sorors or Frat for that matter did not immediately recognize me if I were visiting a campus.

We have to be careful not to perpetuate the "problem" when many times no problem exists.

For the record, I ditto all who say imitation is the highest form of flattery...step on, call on, greet on, make that hand sign, and all of that good stuff. Fellow Greeks...try not to get too much in a huff over it all. We have SERVICE to do :-)

------------------
Zeta Phi Beta Sorority, Incorporated...Every Finer Woman's Dream!

[This message has been edited by Finer Woman10-A-91 (edited April 23, 2001).]

Gammagirl, in 25/52 love the only thing I can say to what I started can be summed up in one word:

GOOD!

I feel a discussion to this end (for me anyways) is LONG overdue. Whereas you may encounter this frequently, but here on the Gilligan's Island of 25/52 (read: Ohio), I don't encounter this much, but I know it exists. I just wanted some feedback.

Match Game '73

Dstbrat, I addressed your first issue in response to prettypoodle's post several posts back, as this seems to be forming a consensus among NPHCers.

Your second paragraph, I can say that the things that make us Alpha Phi Omega should and are all the same: Leadership, Friendship, and Service, without regard to traditions or practices which may deviate from what Nationals may try to promote. This is part of that DIVERSITY that they stress on the fraternity as a whole. Ain't America great?

Match Game '73

I agree with my Soror and see Dstbrat's point also. My earlier posts were deleted for some reason. I have nothing against any group. I end by saying, had there not been a need for any of us, none of us would exist.

------------------
Sweet Deliverance's PHI-losophy:
"What you do or do not do today determines what you can or cannot do tomorrow."

rain man -

i wont even touch the Rhomeo thing cause i dont really know too much about them (as a separate entity) since they havent been apart of my organization for over 5 years before i even joined (i'm sp. 96)!! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif (and besides, if i start talking about some of the things i've seen them do in regards to sgrho, i'd be opening up a WHOLE 'nutha can of worms!)

but thank you for the insight! its well appreciated and noted

gamma girl, there's not hate here just tryna understand that's all!

Alright RM,

Some of us have told you reasons why there is tension among NPHC groups and APO/GSS. From what I've seen, you don't have any real answers to our concerns because you haven't seen or heard about most of the things to which we're referring. Nothing has been said to back up your claim/concern that the tension is racially motivated. In addition, there have been members of the 25/52 family that have said, essentially, "this is a new one on me." So, my question to you is what is your point & what do you plan to do with the information gathered here?

Just wondering.

Kel

finer woman, you raise an important point that is not unique to gamma sig or apo. what about chapters that create traditions that have nothing to do with the national org or the ritual? how do you all feel about that? whether it's remixing a song or any deviation from the program?

i feel like Delta ought to be the same wherever i go. i know different personlities make up the chapter, but the things that make us Deltas should all be the same.

PrettyPoodle, it's all love. Sorry if I came off a little hostile. I'm happy that you're tryna understand-I don't think it's really that serious, only if we make it that way.

RM, much love to you too brother. I know you've raised this question because you're trying to get some understanding, but in 25/52 love, it's hard to get those answers if everyone isn't familiar with the situation at hand. When you have people post and they're like, "Huh?" then it's hard to get the answers you need.

I think that everyone knows it's about serving and uplifment here, not about colors and calls and signs and all that. That is superficial. Those things don't define me as a Gamma Sig, the service that I do and the quality of the service defines me. I think that every greek can agree with that, right?

In Service,
gamma_girl

I have friends from High School that went APO/GSS and they tend to hate on BGLO's all the time. My friends that are in NPHC orgs only reciprocate the hate. IMO, some APO/GSS members feel that the only way to pull themselves up is by pushing others down.

I cannot speak for the 1 million individuals who are members of NPHC organizations, I can only speak from my experiences for me, RM. As far as I'm concerned, there is no tension and I've always treated the APOs I've met with the same love & respect I have for members of NPHC organizations. When I meet a member of GSS, I'll treat her the same way.

Not only can APO/GSS not vote or hold NPHC office, you can't even sit on the council. That's in the NPHC by-laws. It's not something that the individual members are making up, those are the rules. If you'd like that rule to change, follow in Iota Phi THeta's footsteps.

Yes, APO and GSS are entitled to the same respect that any other greek is entitled to, but I'm not going to sit here and say that it's going to happen. BUT, by the same token, members of APO (I really don't see the issue with GSS) should have respect for the things that have been readily associated with an NPHC organization like wearing gold boots. Handsigns & calls really don't bother me because if you pay attention, you can tell the difference.

I have another question. If this is REALLY an APO/GSS versus the NPHC issue, why are there people who hold membership in both?

Again, just wondering.